Why do so many people have a hatred towards JAGS???

[Jeffa]

i asked the question because i was interested to see what the thoughts were of the greater reptile community, although i did know the main reasons i was interested to see if there were more reasons that i did not know about.
As for being annoyed i am not at all i have nothing to be annoyed about i am just interested in seeing what other people have to say and what there opinions are.
Each person is entitled to their own opinion and no matter what you have to respect it, I respect everyone's opinion on this subject and it certainly does give you something to think about that's for sure.
I know a lot of people get angry with the question i posted but that was not my intention i was just curious to see what the greater community's opinion on the matter was.

Would be good to get a vote/ballot (whatever you want to call it) on the issue

 

[cement]

Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.

It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,

Nor is it the jag snakes fault that certain people will be enticed into breeding them, and in doing so ultimately spread mistrust and confusion throughout the hobby where sales of snakes are concerned.

It's not it's fault, that one male jag can cover multiple females in a year producing large numbers of offspring causing a large increase of these snakes into being.

It's not the jag snakes fault that it suffers from a neurological disease that can cause shortened lifespan, and involuntary muscle spasm and twitching, that can have a distressing effect on certain people when they watch them go through these motions.

It's also not the jag snakes fault that 50% of their offspring will have (in time) virtually no place in the hobby and are in fact culled at birth by most breeders.

Call me a purist (its cool, I've heard it all before and is water off my back), but in my opinion it is not the snake that should be hated.
The only people who will do any good, monetary wise, out of jags are the very first to get involved in the breeding of them. They know they have a small window of a few years to clean up before the tsunami expends its energy. The wreckage will take longer to mend.

 

[Jeffa]

Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.

It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,

Nor is it the jag snakes fault that certain people will be enticed into breeding them, and in doing so ultimately spread mistrust and confusion throughout the hobby where sales of snakes are concerned.

It's not it's fault, that one male jag can cover multiple females in a year producing large numbers of offspring causing a large increase of these snakes into being.

It's not the jag snakes fault that it suffers from a neurological disease that can cause shortened lifespan, and involuntary muscle spasm and twitching, that can have a distressing effect on certain people when they watch them go through these motions.

It's also not the jag snakes fault that 50% of their offspring will have (in time) virtually no place in the hobby and are in fact culled at birth by most breeders.

Call me a purist (its cool, I've heard it all before and is water off my back), but in my opinion it is not the snake that should be hated.
The only people who will do any good, monetary wise, out of jags are the very first to get involved in the breeding of them. They know they have a small window of a few years to clean up before the tsunami expends its energy. The wreckage will take longer to mend.

And this my friends is what passion is all about.
Well done cement and I applaude.
Anyone who does not see reason with this logic are not for the wellbeing of animals and only money concerned.

 

[Cockney_Red]

Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.

It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,

Nor is it the jag snakes fault that certain people will be enticed into breeding them, and in doing so ultimately spread mistrust and confusion throughout the hobby where sales of snakes are concerned.

It's not it's fault, that one male jag can cover multiple females in a year producing large numbers of offspring causing a large increase of these snakes into being.

It's not the jag snakes fault that it suffers from a neurological disease that can cause shortened lifespan, and involuntary muscle spasm and twitching, that can have a distressing effect on certain people when they watch them go through these motions.

It's also not the jag snakes fault that 50% of their offspring will have (in time) virtually no place in the hobby and are in fact culled at birth by most breeders.

Call me a purist (its cool, I've heard it all before and is water off my back), but in my opinion it is not the snake that should be hated.
The only people who will do any good, monetary wise, out of jags are the very first to get involved in the breeding of them. They know they have a small window of a few years to clean up before the tsunami expends its energy. The wreckage will take longer to mend.

Quality nutshell post!!!!!

Graham, that is the Jag debate for me, in one well constructed post...

 

[PilbaraPythons]

sorry to digress but,

so many jaded people on this forum. mind you they ALWAYS have their 2c to put in.

one of you please explain how your doing the country a favour by only pure-breeding your captive snakes?

where do you think these captive bred snakes came from? a test tube?

I don't know about doing the country proud but I would imagine many would believe that it is doing the hobby proud.

 

[hrafna]

having pure lines is a good thing, just look at the usa, people are drooling over the animals we keep. they made the mistake to mix it all up! there is plenty of room for both in the hobby.

 

[longqi]

sorry to digress but,

so many jaded people on this forum. mind you they ALWAYS have their 2c to put in.

one of you please explain how your doing the country a favour by only pure-breeding your captive snakes?

where do you think these captive bred snakes came from? a test tube?

This whole argument/discussion has very little to do with "Pure Lines"
Most people who dislike Jags do so because they are being bred with an incurable genetic problem
FULL STOP

Scenario
Best Jungle/BHP/Woma/Olive breeder on Earth advertises his new line of pure Jungles etc
Great little jungles etc but have incurable neuro
Exactly how many do you think he would sell??
How many would you buy??

Yet people queue up to buy Jags?
Those same buyers wouldnt touch another snake that had neuro with a 10ft barge pole
But because Jags are 'Pretty' they will support Jags while at the same time they would blast anyone trying to sell or breed any other species with incurable neuro

The double standard is pretty sad when you think about it logically

 

[RHCP1]

I would have thought that this subject has been done to death over the past 18 months or so. The same arguments are put up by the same people every time.

The same 2 basic issues are raised every time, 1/ smuggling and the risk of introduced diseases and 2/ the neuro issue

Yes, this is a risk of disease being introduced with smuggled animals but I can't think of a disease carried by a python that can kill people.
It would be a quiet week or 2 in Sydney when I don't hear of things like, vipers, rattlers, corba, black mamba ect being offered around.
I shudder to think what would happen if one of these escaped and hit a child down the street.

I guess the same or similar snakes are on offer in other cities and yet where is the outcry.

The neuro issue, yes the condition does exist. One only has to look at the hundreds of repeated posts to see that. It would seem that it is part of the jag gene but DOES NOT affect all jags.

A friend has several of these jags and there is no doubt that neuro problem do exist in SOME lines.

He has some that at 4 y.o. are just perfect, zero signs no matter how stressed out they get. There is another one that when stressed does show significant signs.

While it may not look all that nice for some to see a snake at times arching backwards it would seem that the snake is NOT IN ANY WAY IN DISTRESS.
That statement I base on the fact that if a snake was in distress I would not expect it to a ravenous feeder nor be wanting to mate with whatever came its way.

I am sure glad that my Labrador is a 110% Labrador, (I have checked back 50 generations), and not maybe a Labradoodal or similar. Now that I know she is 100% pure Lab I can still take her walking without fear of being abused for having a cross-breed.

 

[Southside Morelia]

Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.

It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,

Nor is it the jag snakes fault that certain people will be enticed into breeding them, and in doing so ultimately spread mistrust and confusion throughout the hobby where sales of snakes are concerned.

It's not it's fault, that one male jag can cover multiple females in a year producing large numbers of offspring causing a large increase of these snakes into being.

It's not the jag snakes fault that it suffers from a neurological disease that can cause shortened lifespan, and involuntary muscle spasm and twitching, that can have a distressing effect on certain people when they watch them go through these motions.

It's also not the jag snakes fault that 50% of their offspring will have (in time) virtually no place in the hobby and are in fact culled at birth by most breeders.

Call me a purist (its cool, I've heard it all before and is water off my back), but in my opinion it is not the snake that should be hated.
The only people who will do any good, monetary wise, out of jags are the very first to get involved in the breeding of them. They know they have a small window of a few years to clean up before the tsunami expends its energy. The wreckage will take longer to mend.

Hello mate,
Great post, we all have our opinions and that's awesome and great for the hobby with well thought out and intelligent input like this! Whichever side of the fence you stand, there are arguments for both...as a cop-out, I am in middle, but lean to the pure because I keep pure lines and dont want them to be muddied, but als love the look of the jags.
I have 2 x jags only, because they are stunning animals and a great display, all the rest of my vast collection are PURE! You are 100% in what you say re the payout, it all comes down to the breeder/sellers honesty when selling off their projects at a later date. I recall this subject was visited many a year ago and my thread was deleted...deja vu for me and many on here. It is true, staying pure is probably the best thing as we dont want to travel the same path as the USA/Europe, but in saying that, we have the pure animals gene pool at our doorstep and the educated herper can tell the difference do you think?
Jags are here, we just need to manage that now and be different to other Countries and because we have both in the hobby now, we NEED to be able to distinguish between the 2 for the sake of the hobby and to make Australian Hepers different from the rest of the world and to manage this correctly, honestly for the benefit of both sides of the debate! JMO...

 

[MrSpike]

I'd be curious to see how many of the people that have the, 'I won't support keeping/breeding snakes that are bred just for looks and inferior health' point of view... have pure bred, or even mutt dogs. Exactly the same scenario.

Facts:
1. No matter how much you hope, pray and wish - your precious 'pure' pets will never EVER contibute to conservation so there is no reason for designer snakes to be shunned.
2. Why would people go and poach 'ugly' snakes from bush surrounding urban area's when in the future you will have the possibility to buy albino jags, snows, axanthic jags, jagpondros, super hypo jags, orange pepper jags etc etc - and thats just until people come out into the open about Zebra's and Granites... then we have a whole new kettle of fish there! If anything these designer snakes are better for conservation, in regards to poaching!
3. No matter how much you kick, scream, whinge about the 'neuro' issues, all the nay sayers will ever have ANY idea about how little of a problem this is with 90% of jags because they do not own them, and apparently never will. And lets face it, your snakes spend a good majority if their time curled up in a hide not moving anyway.. therefor not displaying any neuro issues..

Oh and on a side note - is there also no place for jag sibs from Coastal jag/ Coastal jag pairings?

My 2c.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

The ownership of a mutt dog analogy is poor simply because it misses a key point. Most people who appreciate pure lines do so because they are proud of Australian native wildlife and enjoy keeping them I suppose in a nostalgic way. If we had say native dogs running around in the bush I am sure most people would desire keeping them over the so called mongrels.

 

[zack13]

The ownership of a mutt dog analogy is poor simply because it misses a key point. Most people who appreciate pure lines do so because they are proud of Australian native wildlife and enjoy keeping them I suppose in a nostalgic way. If we had say native dogs running around in the bush I am sure most people would desire keeping them over the so called mongrels.

Exactly plus the domestic dogs are all the same sub-species. With carpet pythons they are different sub-species so there is that as well.

 

[Cockney_Red]

I'd be curious to see how many of the people that have the, 'I won't support keeping/breeding snakes that are bred just for looks and inferior health' point of view... have pure bred, or even mutt dogs. Exactly the same scenario.

Facts:
1. No matter how much you hope, pray and wish - your precious 'pure' pets will never EVER contibute to conservation so there is no reason for designer snakes to be shunned.
2. Why would people go and poach 'ugly' snakes from bush surrounding urban area's when in the future you will have the possibility to buy albino jags, snows, axanthic jags, jagpondros, super hypo jags, orange pepper jags etc etc - and thats just until people come out into the open about Zebra's and Granites... then we have a whole new kettle of fish there! If anything these designer snakes are better for conservation, in regards to poaching!
3. No matter how much you kick, scream, whinge about the 'neuro' issues, all the nay sayers will ever have ANY idea about how little of a problem this is with 90% of jags because they do not own them, and apparently never will. And lets face it, your snakes spend a good majority if their time curled up in a hide not moving anyway.. therefor not displaying any neuro issues..

Oh and on a side note - is there also no place for jag sibs from Coastal jag/ Coastal jag pairings?

My 2c.

Should have kept your 2c in your pocket, as with all Jag lovers, point missed!

 

[MrSpike]

I think you are missing my point. A high percent of dogs breeds are bred to be an inferior quality for the show ring. Only dogs bred for an athletic ability and performance and not a look can be considered 'sound in health'. Yet people spend hundreds of thousands on these dogs yearly - how is that scenario any different to the one of jags? And on that subject - the issue of these dogs is probably a lot worse. But thats a whole other debate.

I'm all for people keeping dingo's (closest thing we have to a 'native' dog) - but most people can't keep control of their mums poodle cross, let a lone a dog that has a very high drive..

I think the key thing a lot of people are missing on the whole jag/hybrid debate is that - there still are PURE coastal jags. You DO NOT have to cross these with other subspecies if you do not wish.

 

[Wally]

It's purely the neuro issues for me, nothing else.

 

[Grogshla]

I think they are beautiful but I feel sad to think that they could be struggling with basic functions just because people breed them for looks.

 

[Darlyn]

Hey MrSpike,
What does an ugly snake look like? Who quantifies what an ugly snake is?
Designer snakes hinder poaching?
My spastic snake hides so there is no issue?

Interesting???!!

 

[junglepython2]

The chances of there being any legit pure coastal jags in Aus are slim to none!

 

[MrSpike]

Should have kept your 2c in your pocket, as with all Jag lovers, point missed!

Well what is your point? Put it out there plain and simple. Jags are here to stay, like it or not. They are likely to be one of the best, and worst things for this hobby. It's all in how you take it, and how those producing them manage their stock and records. Any self respecting herper should carry as many records as possible for their individual snakes heritage, and a lot of people carry self recorded pedigrees on their animals.

If YOU keep records on YOUR animals and have some self control on buying an animal that may not be 'pure' then how will this effect you and your collection? And if you do decide to buy said animal - then don't breed it!

Some jags can have health issues - so can a lot of other animals in the animal industry, why aren't any of you kicking a stink about them?

 

[Firedrake]

Seeing as Jags are bred solely for being pretty, with the new very pretty pure reduced pattern morphs coming out with no neuro issues, won't that significantly reduce the need for Jags anyway? So you can have a perfectly functioning snake that is also gorgeous to look at and no chance of ever having neuro problems...why would you still buy a Jag? I will admit I would rather have the guarantee of not having any issues, I mean most people don't buy anything knowing full well there's a decent chance it may break later, but how likely is it that the Jags will disappear when the new morphs become readily available? I can bet the price of a new pure RPM will exceed the price of a Jag any day, will Jag breeders move on? Just curious as it seems alot of people are strung up on the neuro issues, would they buy it if it was guaranteed no problems?
Also if we're getting pure morphs that have the same look as Jags what's to say its not another copy of the same genetics and breeding them together too closely will produce the same issues? How did the 'Jag gene' pop up in the first place? Not saying it is I'm just curious as to how/if two completely separate gene combinations could possibly produce such similarities in appearance.

Sorry if I'm hijacking, just alot to be answered in my brain here