BHP toxin immunity

[SteveNT]

Studies in Brazil and Venezuela, published in Toxicon in 1991, revealed that natural neurotoxin immunity (tested with snake venom) is the result of a protein, probably glycoprotein, designed to negate the effects of venom. It was also proposed that antihemmorhagic factors were based on the same mechanism. I'd like to study the field post grad as it's not yet comprehensively researched, especially in Australia.

please DO!

 

[daveandem2011]

The honey badger, can survive a cobra bite too

The Honey Badger is bad ***!!

 

[geckodan]

BHPs are not the only species immune to elapid venoms. More or less, all reptiles, including lacies, that prey on elapids are immune to their venoms.

Is there any science to support this, particularly in monitors??

 

[imported_Varanus]

Is there any science to support this, particularly in monitors??

I seem to remember this being discussed before, somewhere, and the conclusion was that the "immunity" larger monitors seem to have to elapid venom comes in the form of osteoderms in the skin?!

 

[Treknotechelaps]

The fact that BHP can prey upon highly venomous Elapids, surviving their bites and producing mild reactions from a bite could be an evolutionary path towards the genus Aspidites convergently evolving to be like Elapid snakes, they are the only pythons to lack heat-sensory pits, look more elapid-like than other pythons ie. lacking a distinct head, and i have heard of a few people suffering mild reactions to their bites. Giving the BHP another half a million years or more of evolution it would be interesting to see what advances they have acquired. They could be evolving to become a venomous python species!
I recall at a meeting a herpetologist (cant remember who it was) giving a talk about BHPs about 5 or so years ago about them evolving to be like elapids and about mild reactions to their bites, have others heard of anything alike.

 

[imported_Varanus]

Perhaps the narrow head thing could be a reflection of their terrestrial, foraging natures and the need to stick their heads into every small opening in the search for food whereas ambush predators (like Morelia and Death Adders) don't need the adaption?

 

[SteveNT]

The fact that BHP can prey upon highly venomous Elapids, surviving their bites and producing mild reactions from a bite could be an evolutionary path towards the genus Aspidites convergently evolving to be like Elapid snakes, they are the only pythons to lack heat-sensory pits, look more elapid-like than other pythons ie. lacking a distinct head, and i have heard of a few people suffering mild reactions to their bites. Giving the BHP another half a million years or more of evolution it would be interesting to see what advances they have acquired. They could be evolving to become a venomous python species!
I recall at a meeting a herpetologist (cant remember who it was) giving a talk about BHPs about 5 or so years ago about them evolving to be like elapids and about mild reactions to their bites, have others heard of anything alike.

Nope, nothing. Nor have I heard of aspidites causing toxic reactions in bite victims. Keep us informed bro. Sounds interesting but....
what is the basis for this? I dont see how a narrower head = evolving toxicity in non existant fangs??

 

[PilbaraPythons]

A large sand monitor was bitten by a king brown here in the Pilbara and died very quickly.
Witnessed and photographed by John Weigel a couple of years ago.

 

[waruikazi]

That would suggest that they are a more advanced species of python, which they aren't. From memory Aspidites is supposed to be amongst the most primitive of the pythons.

I've had interesting reactions to python bites before, mainly significant but very short term swelling.

The fact that BHP can prey upon highly venomous Elapids, surviving their bites and producing mild reactions from a bite could be an evolutionary path towards the genus Aspidites convergently evolving to be like Elapid snakes, they are the only pythons to lack heat-sensory pits, look more elapid-like than other pythons ie. lacking a distinct head, and i have heard of a few people suffering mild reactions to their bites. Giving the BHP another half a million years or more of evolution it would be interesting to see what advances they have acquired. They could be evolving to become a venomous python species!
I recall at a meeting a herpetologist (cant remember who it was) giving a talk about BHPs about 5 or so years ago about them evolving to be like elapids and about mild reactions to their bites, have others heard of anything alike.

 

[SteveNT]

Maybe primitive enough to have adapted to a range of venoms as they appeared???

 

[garthy]

The honey badger, can survive a cobra bite too

But they do slow down considerably to get over it.

 

[SteveNT]

Perhaps the narrow head thing could be a reflection of their terrestrial, foraging natures and the need to stick their heads into every small opening in the search for food whereas ambush predators (like Morelia and Death Adders) don't need the adaption?

More likely that morelia and death adders evolved a broad head to suit their pursuits, but from a simple bhp style snake ancestor. Designs that are successful dont need to evolve a great deal, crocs or dragonflies for example.

 

[Treknotechelaps]

what is the basis for this? I dont see how a narrower head = evolving toxicity in non existant fangs??

I didnt mean that having a narrower head had any relation to evolving toxicity just the two characteristics were seen in some elapid species.
What i meant about a narrower head is that all other Australian Pythons have a head that is much more distinct from the neck. The narrower head resembling Elapid snakes more like some Pseudonaja and Oxyuranus microlepidotus with the black head colouration and similar head shape.
I didn't mention anything about BHP having fangs, they could be at early stages of evoloving venom glands, and could possibly exude the toxin through their saliva. They were still at early stages of investigating this 5 or more years ago when i heard about it. Or it could all be load of ****, but an interesting concept.

 

[grimbeny]

I have always had an ubsubstantiated idea that blackheads are evolving to look like highly venemous elapids. Its much cheaper to look venemous than be venemous.

 

[Treknotechelaps]

That would suggest that they are a more advanced species of python, which they aren't. From memory Aspidites is supposed to be amongst the most primitive of the pythons.

Being a primitive species of python or not there's still the possibility of venom evolving in some reptile species, they've been around as long as other snake species that have evolved the use of venom, although not at the advanced state as seen in Elapids and some Colubrids. Recently the Komodo Dragon and Lace Monitor have been shown to possess venom glands, and possibly some other Varanus species, also Bearded Dragons- one of the toxins found in the venom of the Bearded Dragon had previosuly only been identified in rattlesnake venom. Being primitive snakes they could have the potential to evolve the use of venom in a different way, released from the venom glands into the saliva and the venom working its way into the blood when the reptile chews on its victim. Being a primitive snake they would be more closely related to varanids or whatever lizard pythons evolved from. Evolution of animals in Australia has led to some bizarre results and anything could be possible.

I should have said more of a general reaction resulting from some BHP bites, i've copped some pretty nasty bites from pythons that have taken a while to heal, not from BHP tho.

I've had interesting reactions to python bites before, mainly significant but very short term swelling.

 

[Oscar90]

Being a primitive species of python or not there's still the possibility of venom evolving in some reptile species, they've been around as long as other snake species that have evolved the use of venom, although not at the advanced state as seen in Elapids and some Colubrids. Recently the Komodo Dragon and Lace Monitor have been shown to possess venom glands, and possibly some other Varanus species, also Bearded Dragons- one of the toxins found in the venom of the Bearded Dragon had previosuly only been identified in rattlesnake venom. Being primitive snakes they could have the potential to evolve the use of venom in a different way, released from the venom glands into the saliva and the venom working its way into the blood when the reptile chews on its victim. Being a primitive snake they would be more closely related to varanids or whatever lizard pythons evolved from. Evolution of animals in Australia has led to some bizarre results and anything could be possible.

I should have said more of a general reaction resulting from some BHP bites, i've copped some pretty nasty bites from pythons that have taken a while to heal, not from BHP tho.

i know its not a reptile but i wonder about the toxin on platypus spike things

 

[CamdeJong]

That would suggest that they are a more advanced species of python, which they aren't. From memory Aspidites is supposed to be amongst the most primitive of the pythons.

I've always thought that too. Even when handling Aspidites it's clear by the way they move and the musculature that they've undergone less change from their ancestors than Morelia have. It's probably attributable to their terrestrial lifestyle in the same way that their smaller head is attributable to thinner food items (snakes and goannas as compared to mammals and marsupials). They've just not taken up a niche that requires as much specialisation as the lifestyle of arboreal pythons.

 

[Beard]

If elapid predators were feeling even slightly sick after ingesting venom, elapid prey would be unpalatable to them. .

Correct me if I'm misguided here but isn't venom harmless if ingested. Aren't the proteins broken down and rendered harmless within the digestion process, a major difference between a venom and a poison???

 

[SteveNT]

Can't say I've come across that info before, but I wont be volunteering for the experimental swallowing of taipan venom soon!

 

[Treknotechelaps]

i know its not a reptile but i wonder about the toxin on platypus spike things

Hmmm, not sure about the evolution of venom with the Platypus but would be interesting to read up about it sometime.