Diamond Python Medical Assistance

Discussion in 'Herp Help' started by Starlord, Feb 14, 2016.

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  1. pythoninfinite

    pythoninfinite Subscriber Subscriber

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    Well, looks like humble pie for dinner tonight! Been away looking after another property for a few days, so missed out on the most recent info. Gobsmacked that I've not at least heard of this before - it would be interesting to know just how uncommon this is. I apologise to Starlord for my aggressive approach earlier in this thread, but I'm still curious about the one hopper every three weeks feeding regime for a four-year-old Carpet, and wonder if a semi-starvation diet had anything to do with the onset of this condition, if a nutritional deficiency is considered a contributor.

    Jamie
     
  2. Herpo

    Herpo Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear that Starlord. :(

    As for the thanks, I did what I hope helps other animals in future. I thought everyone knew about this considering how serious a condition it is...
     
  3. Pauls_Pythons

    Pauls_Pythons Power Seller Power Seller

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    Hold onto that humble pie a while yet Jamie.
    After getting this from Shane I did some more research. Back in 2013 Shane had not seen a single case but it has since been on the increase. While it's not common it is certainly being associated to malnutrition.

    Thanks Shane. From reading the article from Dr Robert Johnson & looking at the image on APS my understanding from the 2 is that this is more of a symptom born from malnutrition, but that might be my own misinterpretation. Just surprised that Diamonds are more prone to this.

    Shane Correct Paul. There are several theories on its cause e.g. collagen issue from birth, malnutrition protein loss, sepsis, vitamin C deficiency has also been proposed. The reality is that all these snakes are underweight and look terrible

     
  4. Starlord

    Starlord Not so new Member

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    @pythoninfinite
    I accept your apology, and about the feeding i guess it was just incorrect information i found off of site/s. But at least now i know and I'll be more diligent from now on.
    Also i'm not sure if you saw, but i did upload pictures of the enclosure. http://imgur.com/a/fPPRH

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    Hmm, the more you know. :|

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    @Herpo
    Apparently not, but I think I can rest knowing that this thread might end up educating hundreds of people about this disease, and if it wasn't for your finding i'd probably still be getting stoned to death. Damn i might buy that book. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2016
  5. pythoninfinite

    pythoninfinite Subscriber Subscriber

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    Certainly a new one to me. It's not as if it's a subtle thing either. I know Starlord was operating with poor information (and without wanting to challenge any further), this surprises me given the amount of husbandry information available from all sources these days. Books are never a poor investment, and there are several excellent tomes available - I would consider good books as excellent investments in your husbandry knowledge, and the best things about good books is that they universally carry information which is more consistently sound than anything you'll find on the net, which as is seen here, can be a source of crap and hocus-pocus if you don't look too much further.

    I'm wondering, Starlord, if money has been a consideration in feeding your snake? Larger rats are expensive, and I see you're debating the value of an $80 book to you knowledge base in an earlier post. Believe me, $80 is nothing if it contributes significantly to your knowledge, and the long and healthy life of the animals in your care. I guess I'm lucky - I was in primary school (1950s) at a time when the only books available to reptile enthusiasts came from Pommyland, and we had info on Grass Snakes, Slow Worms and Adders to try to adapt to Aussie species. I'm still a ravenous consumer of the written word, as a result of habits learned as a kid, and frequently consult several references when considering any particular path of action. Compared with the earlier days, the wealth of good info available now is astronomical - books provide a generally reliable source of good info, but the internet is only useful if you know how to filter the crap from the good stuff, and you need a sound knowledge base to start with, to be able to do this.

    I only ate half the humble pie last night PP, the rest is in the fridge... :)!

    Jamie
     
  6. Snapped

    Snapped Subscriber Subscriber

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    [MENTION=42191]Starlord[/MENTION], if you are thinking of getting another snake at some stage, you'll need to thoroughly clean that enclosure with F10 and chuck out anything like logs etc that can't be cleaned. It's also a good idea to get some F10 hand sanitizer or Purell, and use this before and after handling your snake and after cleaning the cage etc.

    A really good (and free) source of information is the Doc Roc articles (Simon Stone) on snake care, I'll link it below, and in article number 3 he talks about food as well as keeping a snake healthy & happy

    http://www.southernxreptiles.com/RA ARTICLE PAGE.htm


    and here's a basic chart on feeding sizes for all ages of snakes from Rodent Farm

    https://www.rodentfarm.com.au/feeding/carpet-pythons/



     
  7. Starlord

    Starlord Not so new Member

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    [MENTION=41820]pythoninfinite[/MENTION] Yes, i was being admittedly ignorant over the book at first. But, I think you'd be happy to know like that i actually ordered the book in question and it's on its way. My honest answer to your concerns on cost consideration is this, if i knew that i was feeding the snake incorrectly i sure hell would've applied the correct feeding regime even if the costs were higher.

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    [MENTION=34451]Snapped[/MENTION] Thanks for your input, i'll be sure to keep it in mind. Just one quick question: when you say chuck out anything like logs, does that also mean sticks and branches because i can surely just sit them in a bath tub filled with hot water, right?
     
  8. ronhalling

    ronhalling Subscriber Subscriber

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    So!!! at first we all jumped all over Starlord, which considering the condition of the snake was in my opinion warranted, not withstanding the injuries it had this poor snakes condition raised the ire of quite a few of us here. In the end it seems to have been an education for all of us.... Starlord now realizes he was under feeding the poor beast and we now have more information on a disease that could at any time afflict the snakes we all have in our care. This is the new APS and i am proud to be a member of a group that can now discuss problems like this without having the thread closed, fair enough quite a few of us jumped to a few conclusions myself included, but is that not the way to get an informative discussion heading in the right direction?. So i offer my apologies to starlord and thank him for not going off in a huff, had he done so this new information might not have come to light. :) ...................Ron
     
  9. Herpo

    Herpo Well-Known Member

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    Very well said Ron! Makes me proud to be on APS as well!
     
  10. Wokka

    Wokka Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    hot water is a waste of time . Bleach solution is probably best, and about the same price as hot water.
     
  11. Snapped

    Snapped Subscriber Subscriber

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    Yep, diluted bleach or get some F10 and clean everything in that enclosure, and the enclosure itself. You need to kill off any germs/bacteria/nasties left over from your snake.


    F10 kills all types of pathogen – F10SC is bactericidal, virucidal, fungicidal, sporicidal, and is safe for animals and people. (link to the blurb below)

    http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/F10D#.VtegeUDpz-s

    Bleach - ( this next bit is copied and pasted from a reptile website) is a powerful oxidizer that can destroy many if not most microorganisms, including bacteria and viruses, but it has limited activity against spores of some bacteria and fungi.
    The presence of organic debris severely reduces the efficacy of oxidizing disinfectants. Ultraviolet light will also inactivate bleach solutions, as will evaporation and extremes in pH. Bleach solutions are widely used for disinfecting durable surfaces because they are easy to obtain, inexpensive and have a wide antimicrobial activity and low residual toxicity. One half cup of bleach to one gallon of water is effective in inactivating many infectious agents. As you know, the strong odor can be quite irritating to humans and animals and the solution and fumes are toxic to living tissue, including skin, eyes and lungs. Bleach is also corrosive to metals and produces carcinogenic (cancer-causing) by-products. All disinfectants should be used in an area with adequate ventilation, especially when dealing with bleach. As with all disinfectants, after cleaning, surfaces should be rinsed thoroughly and allowed to dry before being placed in contact with herps.


    So basically, hot water won't kill off much of anything. It might make it look clean, but it's the stuff you can't see like bacteria that you want to get rid of. :)
     
  12. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    F10 is safe for animals and humans?
    Its probably safer then bleach but anything that can kill virus is toxic.
    You don't want to be breathing it in and make sure you have the dosage right and use it properly.
    There are recorded respiratory injuries from it in cats, and abcesses on the tongue and mouth of a cat at the vets that was licking it off its paws after walking on a sprayed surface.
    As for bleach - well do your own research, but it is seriously toxic, and from memory has been implicated in MS and motor neuron afflictions of the central nervous system. So use with caution.
     
  13. pythoninfinite

    pythoninfinite Subscriber Subscriber

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    The good thing about bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is that it has a very short half-live and breaks down quickly in the presence of organic material and sunlight. It's probably as good as anything else in terms of what reptile keepers may encounter, but as cement says, use it with all reasonable precautions - gloves and good ventilation are probably the most important. I actually use Virkon S, a similar product to F10, and find it has great deodorising properties as well as being a fantastic cold-sterilising agent. I bought 5kg of the powder in 2004 and still have more than half left!

    Jamie
     
  14. Snapped

    Snapped Subscriber Subscriber

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    Well, going by what's written about it yes, it's reported to be safe for humans and all animals, that's why vets use it..:D..of course it needs to be diluted correctly, wear gloves (like with any detergent/disinfectant) and you wouldn't want to drink the stuff, or sit there inhaling it...but even the material data safety sheet seems to say it's fairly low risk even if you did that, ie, it won't seriously injure you like bleach would.

    http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/core/media/media.nl/id.197681/c.1032112/.f?h=3f696eb050e2891de2ae

    Do you have a link to the reports about the cats? (I'm interested in these kinds of things) Maybe the cat that licked it off it's paws was already ill, old, had a weak immune system....maybe the dilution was too strong....I guess if it's a few cats out of hundreds of thousands of uses daily (with many different animals) with no effect, then I'm thinking something wasn't done correctly for those injuries to occur maybe?
     
  15. Starlord

    Starlord Not so new Member

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    Well looks like I'll be getting some F10, do I really have to dilute it though? I thought it came in spray bottles.
     
  16. Wally

    Wally Subscriber Subscriber

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    You can buy it in a concentrated form and mix it yourself or in a premixed form and it's good to go.
     
  17. Snapped

    Snapped Subscriber Subscriber

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    I didn't think you could buy F10 in a premixed spray?
    [MENTION=42191]Starlord[/MENTION] But anyway, it's easy enough to dilute, just read the instructions on the website, buy an empty spray bottle, just mix up enough for what you need each time.


    How to dilute F10Sc:
    General disinfection of hard surfaces: dilute 1:500.
    High level disinfection: dilute 1:250
    For the most resistant viruses (eg parvovirus): dilute 1: 125.
     
  18. alexbee

    alexbee Not so new Member

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    Totally agree mate, when i moved houses i F10ed the **** out of everything and i was in a slightly confined space.. i got really dizzy and got a massive headache.. good stuff but keep the ventilation up


     
  19. Wally

    Wally Subscriber Subscriber

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  20. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    No I don't but if you really want to speak to the vet who told me send me a pm and i'll give you his number, that way you can hear it directly from him. He doesn't use F10, he uses something else which is more forgiving to humans and animals but just as potent. I use F10, I think its a great product, all I am saying is use it as directed...
     
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