keeping illegaly

[Jason]

im just curious on what people think the extent of exotic reptile keeping is in australia.
i realise this topic will get some diverse answers but it will be interesting
the reason i ask is cause i work part time in a pet shop, and anyone that needs help with reptiles generally asks me. due to this it has become increasingly obvious that there are a large percentage of people keeping and in some cases breeding exotic species, i reckon around 50% (now this may only be 2people a week) or so of the people i talk to tell me that they have exotics or a friend of theres does (now i dont beleive all of them cause some storys sound like garbage).i tell these people the extent of the fines and impacts and some get alittle worried and others just dont care. Now im sure there are many members of this forum (after all there is well over a thousand members) that keep exotics but i dont no to what extent and i think it would be interesting to here peoples opinions on the topic of the number of exotics in relation to native being kept in captivity. imo im starting to believe that there would almost be a 50/50 ratio of exotics to natives, with many people not bothering with licences and just getting what they want.
this leads to my next question, do people beleive that is is possibly getting to the point where npws should just give up and let people keep exotics this way they would be able to atleast have an estimate of numbers and they can be aware of there distribution and abundance of poticular species? its pretty obviouse imo that many people are going to keep them regardless of the repocussions.

what do you all think?

 

[Sdaji]

Here we go again.

It's difficult to say exactly, but there would be a heck of a lot less than 50% exotics representing the captive reptile population in Australia. Take a look at the forums, see how many threads there are along the lines of "Help! My snake escaped!". There is no doubt that legalising would increase the number being kept, bred and escaping. Look overseas, the captive snakes are predominantly balls, bloods and corns. I'd hate to see the Australian scene go from having a great diversity of species to having little more than a great diversity of ball and corn morphs. Don't be fooled, it wouldn't add to the diversity, there are only so many people keeping in Australia, only so many snakes each person has time, space and money to keep and much of that time, space and money would go towards exotics rather than natives if it was legal.

In any case, the point is moot, the relevant authorities have made it overwhealmingly clear that exotics aren't going to be legalised. On this point, I support them 210%

 

[Guest]

This is just my opinion but I really doubt that a few exotics escaping and breeding would make a massive impact on Australias ECO system I think its just a case of the government trying to flex its muscles and show they have power like lets face it the government brought one animal we will never get rid of and are breeding worse then rabbits and moving into parts of Australia where the government said they could never survive (Im talking about cane toads).
We can't Import any "non-native" reptiles unless you have a permit for a zoo etc but yet we can import exotic mice and rats which have been known to harbour serious diseases which have killed humans (They say we aren't far from another bought of the black plague which wipped millions of people out)We can also import some exotic fish species which are not meant to be able to survive in "wild Australian conditions" but we are now seeing Pond,rivers,drainage systems over run with such fish as Discus and Red devils which are thriving in Queensland.
And if you walk into an aquarium shop 90% of fish in there are illegal to import but the government will allow them to be kept without legal action, So if you import them your screwed but if you are keeping them as pets and didn't import them you are sweet as pie. Just another case of the government's double standards.
I do like many exotics but I really like our native Carpets and tree snakes so i am content and don't feel the need to keep any.
So point of the story is anything the Government see's people enjoying they will ban it which in turn makes people resort to such things as smuggling.
Just my opinion.

 

[Spike14]

Ok the reason that they are banned is because they are afraid of the having diseases rite? But its most likely that the exotice were bred her in aus, if it did come to the stage were they got fed up with the number of exotics i would think that they would have another amnisty thing were you license them, like they had a few years back, and if they had one of those, i would jump to get some exotices like a boa or chameleon, but in saying that my mum said she want's a yellow eared slider, first thing i said was no, because if she gets caught with them then i loose my license, its only in certin circumstances that i would own some exotics

 

[Jason]

In any case, the point is moot, the relevant authorities have made it overwhealmingly clear that exotics aren't going to be legalised. On this point, I support them 210%

i completely agree i dont want them legalised either. its just interesting to think about the thousands of people doing it legaly and having a licence and keeping native, and to compare that with the number of people that dont have a licence and are keeping exotics. as you would be aware there are no exact figures and never will be thats why its interesting to here peoples opinions on how many they believe are illegaly keeping herps exotics and even natives imo i beleive that there would be probably almost as many people keeping without a licence and the probabiltiy of those keeping exotice would be higher amongst them due to much lesser risk of being cought compared to those who have licences, if htis was the case then there would be many exotics out there that people wouldnt even have thought to be in collections or in the country.

 

[Sdaji]

Listen to yourself, yayo. "They said cane toads couldn't survive here" well, that's just plain nonsense, if they didn't think they'd survive here they wouldn't have been brought in. Duh. Yes, look at all the exotic birds, fish and mammals which are harming our country so much. You complain that the fish, bird and mammal people can keep and in some cases import their exotics, you point out the damage that those exotics have caused, you then go on to say that you want to do the same with reptiles!

We have so little left of our small native mammals, our fish aren't doing much better and our birds aren't in great shape either. Why on earth would be want to make the same mistakes with reptiles? We are so incredibly fortunate to have virtually no exotic snakes (only one), very few lizards and just one pesky turtle. We all know what can happen when you release an exotic amphibian. Wanting to go down the same horribly destructive path of the bird, mammal and fish people is pure insanity.

 

[Jason]

This is just my opinion but I really doubt that a few exotics escaping and breeding would make a massive impact on Australias ECO system I think its just a case of the government trying to flex its muscles and show they have power

but there is proof thate they can breed and outcompete othere native species. just look at our brown tree snake, it was accidently introduced into another country (i think Guam or another little island above indonesia) duriong would war 2 since then it has reproduced so rapidly that it is wiping the native birds out rapidly and there are that many that it is causing a major ecosystem impact which is huge
(someone may be able to supply a link to a web page with info on this)

first thing i said was no, because if she gets caught with them then i loose my license

which supports what i said, people with licenses are scared of being cought cause npws have there details, where as those that dont have lisenses think they wont be cought.

 

[Moreliaman]

 

[Jason]

well said Moreliaman

 

[Dicco]

If they are legal, more will be kept more will escape, there are many species that could thrive here.

Australias environment is already royally screwed, we don't need more pressure on it.

So what if we keep other exotics? Allowing more just makes it worse not any better.

We have more native Reptiles than anywhere else in the world, people are just greedy, you can't expect to have everything.

 

[Craig2]

while we r talking about keeping snakes illegaly. How many ppl have had herps for sale and some of the ppl who ring up do not have a reptile licence. This has happend to me a few times in the past but it seams to be getting worse. whats your opinion. U goto be carefull..

 

[Tristis]

i use to work at the sydney pet expo at a reptile stand and the amout of people that came up to you and ask "do you no where i can get a corn snake from" was amazing. mabye 30 or more people a day, then you have the people showing you pics on digital cams and phone and asking if you new anybody after exotics. even people would tell you they had corn snakes and didnt even no that they are illegal. i think there are more corns than chilldrens being kept in nsw. one thing i notices is the guys with exotics are the ones new to the hobby, alot of young guys 18 - 25 buy a mac or carpet as there first snake and then start talking to the pet shops and then some one says" i got a mate that has corns for sale do you want one?" the only reason they buy them is that it is ilegal. its like drugs people sell them because they are illegal and they get a kick out of the thrill. exotics will always be here theres that many of them. i think most are bred here and this is a big part of the problem. pet shop seem to be the big problem as they seem to be where every one gets them from (not all pet shops just a handful).

 

[Dicco]

Jason, there was no evidence any of the animals introduced to Australia would cause harm and out compete our wildlife either.

 

[Guest]

Sdaji you may want to open your eyes and read what I actually said which was:
-one animal we will never get rid of and are breeding worse then rabbits and moving into parts of Australia where the government said they could never survive (Im talking about cane toads).

P.S I will take my appology in English,Serbian,Spanish or French thanks.

 

[Sdaji]

Mr-Magic: I used to get that heaps, some people would even get offended when I refused to sell them snakes off license! Some would lie and say they had licenses, but they were pretty easy to sound out on the phone and telling them that they'd have to bring their license with them and I'd have to see it before they had the snakes kept every one of them away :lol: I actually haven't had anyone to ask for off license snakes for about two years now, perhaps it's because I now sell more through word of mouth and advertise less.

 

[Guest]

Soooooo where is my appology Sdaji?

 

[Nephrurus]

Someone is about to point out that Australia has already a whole heap of exotics (kept illegally), and they haven't become an environmental problem yet. Not many people know the extent that "acclimatisers" went to to get foxes and rabbits established in wild populations. Most early releases were killed by dogs or other animals (eagles etc..) and it took a good many years to get the animals breeding. Only recently (last 10 years) have some ecological terrorists succeeded in getting foxes established in Tasmania (yes, a fox cub was found recently dead on the road, so they are breeding).

My point is that just because there is no percieved problem with exotics at present, it does not mean there will not be a one if they were kept in captivity in greater numbers (in numbers that legalisation would result in). The number of escapes in our fairly small reptile keeping community is fairly large. Admittedly i had a small blotched python escape eariler this year (since recovered), and Sdaji pointed out the large number of "Snake escapes" threads are probably only a small percentage of how many escaped.

If your'e desparate for exotics, get an axolotl.

-Henry

 

[Sdaji]

yayo, I did miss that (I'm on a laptop outside in the sun sorry ).

However, it changes little. The fact that the government said cane toads couldn't live where they now thrive shows that even with reasonable research, we can massively underestimate what animals will be capable of if released into a new environment.

For the record, I've spent more than a year researching distribution modelling/bioclimatic analysis (understanding why things live where they do and predicting where they'd be capable of living). This research will wind up next month, I'll be most relieved!

 

[da_donkey]

If it exists then you can get it $$$$$$ i have heard from a reliable source about monkeys,baby tiger cubs and just about every herp you can imagine.

My question is about the proper medical care of these animals when they need it, if you show up at the vets with a sick iguana, can they dob you in or are vets bound like doctors are?

 

[Guest]

No worries Sdaji we can all be a little "Clumbsy" sometimes.