Keeping Small Elapids In NSW

[MrBredli]

It's a pretty unfortunate situation in NSW where species such as Yellow-faced Whipsnakes, Golden-crowned Snakes, Swamp Snakes etc are extremely rare in captivity. In fact if you want to keep a venomous snake, it is quite likely you're first is going to be the dangerously venomous Reb-bellied Black Snake due to lack of alternatives. I personally feel that the herp community, and in particular persons interested in acquiring venomous species, would benefit greatly if a number of these snakes were taken from the wild and a captive breeding program was setup to supply those wanting to get into vens. All 3 species mentioned are extremely common. Perhaps taking 5-6 pairs of each would be all that is needed to give the numbers in captivity the much needed boost. This would have no impact whatsoever on numbers in the wild, especially if the person collecting puts a little thought into where he collects from. The only con i see is problems associated with feeding these species. Does anyone agree that this would be a good idea? It really seems common sense to me. Why are we forcing inexperienced keepers to take on Red-bellied Black's & Collett's as their first venomous elapid (even though they are quite easy to manage; they are both dangerously venomous)?

 

[basketcase]

you hit the nail on the head with feeding, all three of the species you've mentioned are fairly difficult to wean onto dead rodents.

personally i dont see the benefit in keeping any of those three as an introduction into keeping vens, as you can't gain any substantial handling experience with them due to their size.

as far as toxicity goes a red belly bite will not kill with appropriate first aid.
imo red bellies are the perfect begginers elapid, as i consider a species general temperment far more significant (to an extent) than venom strength.

and golden crowns are common? i thought they were fairly rare...

 

[MrBredli]

Rarely seen maybe.. but very common, in my experience anyway.

I think in terms of captive maintenance you can learn alot from keeping these species before moving onto the big guys. Whippies and Swampies can grow to over 1m in length so they're not that small. I think the experience of keeping these could benefit alot of people who have only kept pythons or colubrids before. Red-bellies are a good first dangerous venomous species, but i can't say they are a good first elapid. They may not be that aggressive, nor that venomous compared to others, but a bite from one can do alot of harm. There may well be antivenoms available to save your life, but a bite has alot of other effects on your health. There is a great pic around somewhere showing the irrepairable damage a Black Snake bite did to someone's hand/finger, i'll see if i can find it..

 

[salebrosus]

I had a few Yellow Faced Whip Snake call outs through WIRES, all attacked by cats and all died within 12 hours. All of the call outs were in the Glen Alpine area that backed onto the area down near Sugarloaf Riding Ranch.
I totall agree with Mr Bredli, The Golden crown snakes are a nice snake, you never really see much else other than Red Bellies come onto the market. At least we can get Pale Headeds,Stephens Bandeds and Broadheadeds on Category 1. Only thing that makes me wonder is that if the Broadheaded wasn't on NSW species list until August 2004 how the hell would anyone have them legally unless they were unreleasable animals thru WIRES or something?

Simone.

 

[NoOne]

Yellow faced whip snakes aren't that hard to find in captivity, theres a pair for sale on reptilesdownunder at the moment.
I know several people who keep them.

 

[MrBredli]

Holy crap! I didn't realize all the Hoplocephalus species had been moved to Category 1. I thought it was still only Red-bellied's & Collett's. I need to keep up with the times man..

 

[MrBredli]

Yellow faced whip snakes aren't that hard to find in captivity, theres a pair for sale on reptilesdownunder at the moment.
I know several people who keep them.

Aren't that hard to find? I know there is a pair available now (bet they're gone already) but when was the last time you saw them advertised? I'll answer that for you, about 6-8 weeks ago, URS said they'd have 2 available soon. Other than that i don't think there has been any others advertised that i can remember. I know people who have been looking for them for as long as i can remember, in the end they just gave up.

 

[Rennie]

Wow, they have the internet on computers now!

I need to keep up with the times man..

Yes, you do :lol:

 

[MrBredli]

I'll pay that :lol:

 

[Nephrurus]

Just to add to the whole "those species are difficult to feed" thing....
The only golden crown I know of in captivity has been held since the amnesty. In this time the keeper has managed to wean burtons legless onto pinkies (no mean feat) but after having tried everything has failed with the golden crowns.

-H

 

[Nome]

Perhaps taking 5-6 pairs of each would be all that is needed to give the numbers in captivity the much needed boost. This would have no impact whatsoever on numbers in the wild, especially if the person collecting puts a little thought into where he collects from. The only con i see is problems associated with feeding these species. Does anyone agree that this would be a good idea?

That's a pretty big call....is this based on research or just in your experience of how many you've seen advertised?

Have you even checked the returns list for last year?

 

[MrBredli]

It's based on my opinion, and that's all it is :?

 

[MrBredli]

But seeing as you mention it...

Yellow-faced Whipsnake - 14
Golden-crowned Snake - 2
Swamp Snake - 17

Red-bellied Black Snake- 219
Collett's Snake - 70

 

[NoOne]

:lol:

 

[cris]

i agree with mr b.
i think they should let snake removalists keep such snakes if they wish.
if they are changing the laws to allow them in to be readily available in captivity they could also let you feed them on a proper diet :idea:

 

[MrBredli]

I may be wrong, but i think it is currently legal to capture small skinks if they are to be used as a food source for your captive snakes, just not from national parks & other protected areas etc.

 

[Rennie]

I'm not sure if it is but it should be legal to take or even keep and breed garden skinks etc. for food, I don't know about you, but my garden is crawling with them, we're not exactly going to wipe them out any time soon.

 

[Nome]

I'm not sure if it is but it should be legal to take or even keep and breed garden skinks etc. for food, I don't know about you, but my garden is crawling with them, we're not exactly going to wipe them out any time soon.

True, but you could say the same about any common herp.

That's why I hope that they stay rare in captivity, due to their feeding problems, seems there's enough as it is with just carpet pythons.

I would assume the first rule in keeping vens is that you just don't get bitten, you don't become complacent, you don't get in a position that you will be able to get bitten-there's not much difference between whip snakes and RBBS's as a first ven, except that RBBS are far better feeders on rodents.

 

[MrBredli]

I just don't think Red-bellied Black Snakes are a good species to be using to learn how to 'not get bitten'. You could say that you could use a python to learn this skill, but it's really just not the same. I kind of take back what i said now however, as i was unaware there are now a decent varierty of elapids on Category 1. Anyhow, there is still a huge demand for the smaller elapids i have mentioned, and i don't think it would hurt to allow a few to be brought into captivity. I still think it's a good idea - though i know it will never happen.

 

[MrBredli]

There is a great pic around somewhere showing the irrepairable damage a Black Snake bite did to someone's hand/finger, i'll see if i can find it..

Here it is. The pic was taken by J. Cann and was published in Rick Shine's 'Australian Snakes - A Natural History'.