Do reptiles need mental stimulation?

[Dan19]

How do you measure if an animal is thriving??

You ask it obviously.

 

[Sdaji]

How do you measure if an animal is thriving??

Good question. Ideally you would measure it either by reproductive success or population growth (hold a colony of the species and see which conditions this was maximised at). Obviously in some combinations, such as snakes and temperature, you couldn't just say one temperature was best, and the testing would be very complex. I actually got right into this sort of thing, but explaining it would take too long (I literally wrote a thesis on it ).

In species such as most insects, the ideal value of a variable such as temperature can be found using a surrogate measure of performance, such as running speed, feeding rate, response time, growth rate etc. Ideally you'd measure a range of performance traits and you hope that you find that they all point to the same value (otherwise things get quite complicated, but fortunately in simple animals it usually is simple enough for one curve to be representative of the animal's overall ideal). Typically you produce a performance curve with a range of values of the variable of interest. I wish I had my data set handy, my honours results for my performance curve were brilliant (not that I'm prone to boasting ) and I'd love to post the diagram, the figure of my performance curve is still being used in university lectures (not that I think that's cool or anything :lol: ).

 

[montay]

what is click clack furniture I keep reading about (furniture for snakes??)

 

[montay]

Nice to see an intellectual analysis - from one PhD to another (?) cheers

 

[pete12]

i think they do i tend to change Elly's enclosure when i clean it and with food time i make her strike a few times before letting her have it.

 

[Slytherin]

what is click clack furniture I keep reading about (furniture for snakes??)

LOL...Little chairs for snakes. :lol: :lol: :lol:

"Click clack furniture"...the removable stuff that goes into the click clack, except the snake.

 

[SlothHead]

What species of ticks do you use for your snakes? Where do you get them? How do you introduce your intestinal worms? Do you simulate predatory attacks by cutting your snakes with blades and compressing their bodies in vices or do you actually get a dog to gnaw and thrash around with them? Once in how many years do you simulate a bad season in terms of food availability by starving your snake to the point where it's close to death? On what time frame do you simulate a larger animal pushing you snake out of its preferred refuge and force it to endure unfavourable temperatures?

etc etc etc etc etc.

It is a complete myth that animals in the wild live in an ideal environment. They have evolved to cope with a hostile and more often than not deadly environment, not a warm, fuzzy, loving one. When it comes to animals with simple needs, such as many snakes, we can quite easily give them much better lives than they'd have in the wild. Compare a typical captive snake with a typical wild one and you quickly see the difference.

I actually wrote my honours thesis on the topic. People interested in learning about this properly rather than following reptile forum myth might like to read up about the concepts of fundamental and realised ecological niches.

It's good news! We can be happy and proud about providing our animals with wonderful lives, much better than their wild counterparts have. We don't need to live with feelings of guilt about being unable to make our animals happy; we can leave that to the bird keepers.

(To all the ornis out there :lol: )

You can play straw man arguments all you like.

The question is of enrichment, not simulating the environment 100%. So maybe go back to your honours degree and learn how to conduct a scientific argument rather than a straw man argument.

It is a complete myth that animals in the wild live in an ideal environment.

man that must be a great thesis, did you make up the data in that as you have made up what was said here as well.

No one is talking about introducing ticks, allowing the animal to live in a multi species environment etc, the poll question is about whether animals do better with mental stimulation.

You say you have your honours degree, well it doesn’t take that to do a lit review to discover that enrichment in non-natural environments is beneficial.

You know i used to think having a honours degree was big as well or doing a double degree was big, but not long after i had completed it i was in a taxi, with a few other guys from uni. and found out that the guy behind the wheel had his first class honours in biochemistry, so pandering around on the net making straw man statements thinking that you are king and every one should grovel at your feet doesn’t actually make you any better than the next. They are a dime a dozen champ.

 

[tattoolizzie]

I agree with slothhead...

No one was talking about recreating natural environments - rather, allowing animals to display natural behaviours.

Lizzie

 

[SlothHead]

Lol:
Well at least someone loves you lol

I actually wrote my honours thesis on the topic. People interested in learning about this properly rather than following reptile forum myth might like to read up about the concepts of fundamental and realised ecological niches.

(I literally wrote a thesis on it

my honours results for my performance curve were brilliant

figure of my performance curve is still being used in university lectures

Does someone have a complex?


So anyway, back to some of the point you raised.

Certainly, the niche that an animal occupies, is not all cotton wool and ice cream. Species evolve due to the hard ships of the niche. So not sure where you get the "It is a complete myth that animals in the wild live in an ideal environment." as no one is suggesting this.

Simply what is being suggested is that if you provide enrichment for animals. Read the following post i made,

All sorts of caveats need to be placed on this sort of thing for safety of the animal, i.e. though it is natural, feeding the animal live food etc, has the down side of possible injury to the animal. Howver, establishing an enriched environment generally doesnt, thus allowing the animal to behaviour normally.

Caveats, just in case your honours thesis didnt cover this in your GIS, are things that must be considered in a cost benefit analysis. So your implication about placing ticks in an enclosure really is a bit odd to say the least.

So as said, if you make an environment for the animal, i.e. enriched whereby they can perform more natural behaviours, i.e. climb, take a swim, push around in undergrowth, forage, etc, then it doesnt take Mr honours thesis to recognise happier animals, they even smile more.

 

[Earthling]

Sdaji Im going to agree with Slothhead on this one...you have gone off track, and strawman.

Personally, I think all animals to varying degrees need stimulation to have a fullfilling life.
What exactly that entails, without asking, them I dont know.
But...
Imagine someone making a sealed room and sticking you in it. With an optimal temp range and good food, water and even computers, tv, games and all the other THINGS they think you would love thrown in as well. Whilst for a period you may be happy, after a while your going to want out...you will need different experiences, different inputs...to be able to choose your inputs, rather then have them decided for you.

Or how about we create a whole town where your trapped. Same scenario where someone has designed and decided what you need. Cant get out...lots of other people their...you going to be happy knowing your trapped and looked after in this environment that someone else has deemed 'perfect' for you?

Remember that 'reality movie' years ago of a guy in a town and all the towns people are actors and its all broadcast live...was he happy?

Granted, a snake has different needs and desires then you. But it still has them. How do you know which ones it really wants? You dont and never will....welcome to the cage.

 

[Sdaji]

Sloth: I'll make it brief to save you, me and everyone else the hassle of reading a long post.

You say no one was saying that recreating the natural environment is what we should strive for. Actually, this was suggested (I actually quoted it) and it's a very commonly spoken myth. It was this statement I was addressing, and this one alone.

You're absolutely right, what I was saying did not address the thread's original question. I didn't claim that's what I was doing, I didn't even start an attempt to do so. Yes, I am guilty of going off topic, but I didn't at any stage attempt to say that what I was talking about had anything to do with it, so your complaints mean nothing. My 'straw man argument' wasn't there at all. I was not trying to make the claim you say I was. Of course it would be weak, which is why I didn't and wouldn't make it. Environmental enrichment is a completely different issue, it is beneficial for the mental wellbeing of most vertebrates, and I'm not too retarded to understand that. You've imagined arguments I simply didn't make.

 

[wokka]

Ifr you measure benefit by breeding, survival, or weight gain i dont think mental stimulation from "toys " has much effect. its a case of imposing human needs on animals.

 

[gary.wheeler7]

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/mavric_2008/Picture8082.jpg my coastl livesin hear loads of space she is 9ft long and is only 3 in feb 2009 so is she doing well or not cos i only give her 4 large rats a month she is growing well cos she is happy

 

[wokka]

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/mavric_2008/Picture8082.jpg my coastl livesin hear loads of space she is 9ft long and is only 3 in feb 2009 so is she doing well or not cos i only give her 4 large rats a month she is growing well cos she is happy

Gees i hope she hasn't got a pinhead. At least she's happy.

 

[gary.wheeler7]

no her head is big http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg289/mavric_2008/Picture7031.jpg and never gets stessed with me

 

[Sdaji]

Ifr you measure benefit by breeding, survival, or weight gain i dont think mental stimulation from "toys " has much effect. its a case of imposing human needs on animals.

As I said, it's a completely different topic. I was responding to the comment that we should recreate the natural environment. We shouldn't. In a natural situation, mental stimulation is always going to be there, so finding what they need in the wild requires looking at their ideal physical conditions (temperature, moisture, food availability, etc). Obviously the reason you don't get freshwater fish living in the ocean or Chondroes living in Tasmania is not becasue they'd be too bored. If the physical conditions were good, these animals would be mentally perfectly happy in these places.

Mental enrichment is an interesting topic, which for the sake of clarity I will stay away from in this thread, just to be that there can be no confusion about the fact that the 'strawman argument' exists only in the imagination of sloth, Earthling, etc, and certainly not in anything I'm standing by. If it's still not clear... I was commenting on an unrelated point raised by someone other than the original poster and I do not claim that mental enrichment is not important. I'm not even sure what this 'strawman argument' actually is. If I gave the impression that I was saying the only thing which was important was an animal's raw physical requirements, I'm sorry. Please notice that I explained my honours data only after someone was interested enough to ask about it, and I responded to that. The question about my honours work was asked after I pointed out that natural environments are not ideal environments. Mental health is another issue, I never touched it, can you see that?

I can't see where I said anything at all to the effect that mental enrichment was not important, or where I made any comment at all on the original topic. I thought it would be clear that since my first post came after a quote from someone saying that the natural environment should be recreated as closely as possible, that's what I was discussing, and since I never even tried to touch on the mental enrichment topic, it wouldn't look like I was trying to. Rather than quoting me with intention of mockery, try quoting where I have put forward a strawman argument - you can't, because I haven't said anything like it. If you read my posts properly you'll see that the only thing I've done wrong is go off topic. If you still want to see my posts related to something other than what they were, have fun

If it's still not clear, okay, I suppose you're beyond letting go of the imagined intention of my posts, so knock yourself out, believe whatever you like

 

[hydropython]

You can play straw man arguments all you like.

The question is of enrichment, not simulating the environment 100%. So maybe go back to your honours degree and learn how to conduct a scientific argument rather than a straw man argument.



man that must be a great thesis, did you make up the data in that as you have made up what was said here as well.

No one is talking about introducing ticks, allowing the animal to live in a multi species environment etc, the poll question is about whether animals do better with mental stimulation.

You say you have your honours degree, well it doesn’t take that to do a lit review to discover that enrichment in non-natural environments is beneficial.

You know i used to think having a honours degree was big as well or doing a double degree was big, but not long after i had completed it i was in a taxi, with a few other guys from uni. and found out that the guy behind the wheel had his first class honours in biochemistry, so pandering around on the net making straw man statements thinking that you are king and every one should grovel at your feet doesn’t actually make you any better than the next. They are a dime a dozen champ.

No. the poll question is whether reptiles are benefited by mental stimulation. Given the fact that their intellectual ability is minimal, and the types of mental stimulation some fools seem to be considering to be beneficial sdaji doesn't really seem to be missing the point at all.

He is spot on about the idiocy of the poll question in the first place. The question which exists is the ultimate one. HOw do you assess benefit. realistically, the only animal which benefits from such "mental stimulation" of reptiles is the person doing said mental stimulation.

This nonsense about fulfilling life is just that. Life is fulfilled by the passing of genetic information to the next generation. Anyone who believes otherwise is misguided and just anthropomorphising things for their own benefit.

 

[Sdaji]

Wow, now the argument I didn't even make is being supported! :lol:

It's a little tempting to get into the debate, but if I actually comment on it in this thread it might be too difficult to see that my earlier posts were unrelated.

The main problem with the poll is that it is unbalanced. The 'yes' answer is non-commital while the 'no' answer is absolute. It's easier to vote for 'I think so' than 'definitely'. Very poorly worded, biased poll which won't give a true reflection of the members' feelings. It should have been "I think so" and "I don't think so" or "Yes and "No" or "Definitely" and "Definitely not", or something similar.

(Now people can imagine that I've commented on which answer is correct, what I had for breakfast and what colour the socks I'm wearing are :lol: )

 

[SlothHead]

breakfast and what colour the socks I'm wearing are :lol: )

Corn flakes, covered in maple syrup and are they blue??


Alright lets bring this back to civility like the good apes we are.

To clear it up, no, replicating the complete natural environment in your animals enclosure is not a good idea, in fact, it probably would be a little dangerous. Especially if you have bluetongues or turtles, because then you are going to need to build a road through the enclosure and organise "non eco friendly" people to not only drive through but swerve to hit the animal as well.
(yeah saw that earlier this morning, on my morning run... who am i trying to kid, i was driving the other way)

But i am an advocate of providing enrichment, obviously this depends on the species at hand, and there is plenty of information on this topic that shows a positive correlation between erichment and mental/ physical well being.

Appologies Sdaji, if i interpreted what you said in a way that it wasnt meant to be interpreted, as it actually appears that we are saying the same thing.

See thats what happens when people stay up late, we cant form full sentences, or utilise the corrent emPHASIS on the right sylABLe

Not ot have a big dig at the poll maker, but yes Sdaji is right, without hte right wording of the poll and also the options then yes it certainly makes it opaque, because there is "certainly" no certainty in any answer... except for that one

Cheers

 

[indicus]

Do reptiles need mental stimulation?

Interesting question; with differing views;
providing answers that could be perceived either right or wrong;
depending on your own personal morels...
It's been proven that a snake can be raised it's whole life in a plastic container;
successfully growing; breeding etc; without any adverse health problems....that we know of.
Does that then make it right to do so?...
Each keeper regardless of keeping methods; IMO is responsible for 'Quality of life'.
How do we provide 'Quality of life' for say; a snake whose needs and wants maybe rather simple?
Firstly by fulfilling it's most basic needs; for survival....food, water, heat and housing.
As a keeper we may build on these basic needs; to create an environment;
that offers variables; that may in fact offer mental stimulus....

- An enclosure that has a variety of hides; allowing the animal to 'choose' where it wants to rest;
deposit eggs etc
- Introduction of various cage furnishing's; that may provide the stimulus for a inactive animal to become active;
and explore it's enclosure.
- A temperature gradient within the enclosure; that allows the animal a 'choice' as to where;
and how long it spends there.
- Different foods that allow the animal a 'choice' whether it's interested in feeding now or not.
- Water; mist sprayed; increasing the humidity; simulating a rain storm; may trigger the animal to
become active; in turn offering stimulus....
- The introduction of a cage mate; that stimulates; breeding; defence behaviour etc.

These are just a few examples; of factors; that may indeed; reflect some form of mental stimulation...
Given the fact that snakes; like other forms of reptiles; get use to a set routine; does lead one to believe;
that there is some form of thought process involved....I don't believe it's just restricted to 'survival instincts';
regardless whether it's a higher or lower form of reptile.
If a reptile can show sign's of stress; why not is then conceivable; it may need a certain amount;
mental stimulation to flourish?
Either way; IMO; we are responsible for a animals 'quality of life'; regardless of the thought process involved.
One things for sure; I hope my males mentally... stimulate the females