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Mmafan
Dont you understand the major thing you leave out of all your calculations
Population
The huge population increases in both Africa and Asia are what is forcing more contact between their animals and them
If Australia was exploding with people the way most of those countries are the results would be much more similar
But population wise Australia is both factually and figuratively speaking a desert

Yes that is completely true population or you chance of encountering a dangerous animal obviously has a huge effect on how many people will be killed by that particular animal. Their are also differences between poor 3rd world nations and a 1st world nation in Australia that would prevent many deaths from animal attack. But still the fact remains even if Australia was a poor 3rd world nation and had similar population densities as Africa and Asia...they still only really have 1 dangerous large endemic animal that can go onto land.( crocodile) as oppossed to numerous for both Africa and Asia

No-one on here will argue that both Asia and Africa have some of the most dangerous creatures on Earth but in every single case the numbers of those creatures is dropping quickly

I would not agree with that. Elephants populations are growing tremendously in fact they probably will have to cull Elephants sooner or later as well as their are just to many of then. Elephants population in Africa( In Asia this isn't true) are growing much like Salties in Australia. As for Nile Crocs...I wouldn't say they are decreasing either..In certain regions sure, but in others they are doing okay and in the national parks they are doing fine. They are listed as "least concern" and in some regions are very big and aggressive animals..with very little fear of humans. Hippos are slightly declining but their are 120-150 thousand left and in the parks they are fine. Both Hippos and Nile Crocs cause significant danger to the people who coexist with them

And that was my point..If people in Africa/Asia can coexist with a whole host of different large dangerous animals surely people in the NT can find a way to coexist with Salties

Lions are on the decline in numbers..but still they are easily spotted and have very healthy populations in many national parks and they kill many people each year and will be fine. Of course tigers are in dire trouble and may become extinct in the wild soon if drastic action is not taken.

For Bears I don't know about their overall population. I would assume they are doing alright. Bears are not dangerous to people like Big Cats are through. Surprise encounters with Mothers and Cubs constitute most attacks and bears can coexist with humans alot better than crocs and lions can. Their was a nut case who used to camp( by himself) in Katmai National Park with hundreds of bears each year...including being feet away from fights/mothers with cubs, bears fishing etc...and their was no real incident. After 13 years of doing this...him and his girlfriend were eventually killed and eaten by an old/weak male bear that was struggling to survive and it was a bear that they had never seen before and didn't know....

here is info on the guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell


Now picture what would happen if someone camped out with a pride of lions or right by a crocodile infested river...They wouldn't survive 2 weeks let alone 13 years( he would go from April to september/october for 13 years)



The number and size of Salties is increasing at a very fast rate

The fact that they are increasing in size...indicates to me that they are finally recovering from the over hunting that took place until the 70s. If an animal is increasing in size...that means it is recovering from hunting or a significant increase of food in the area. For me that is a good thing. Dwarfism is a huge problem for many animals and I am glad that more large crocs are being found like in the past. The number increase is a problem, but why would you want smaller crocs?



The """hunters"" would only want to kill trophy animals
"Hunting a sleeping croc" is hardly hunting in any way shape manner or form
unless of course you just drop a bleeding hunter into a pool with a rubber powered speargun and a face mask
I suppose we could also give them a knife if they wanted one
Might make it a bit fairer

Well I mean they could hunt problem animals...animals that turn up in unsuspecting and unwanted areas where they threaten people. This would ensure that the most dominant animals( which from what you guys have said) live in the major river systems far away from people are left alone and not hunted and the ones that move off into areas near people can be hunted. I mean it would not be the ideal thing to do but if their population is really that absurdly high I would prefer that over culling.

I mean the alligator rivers are in Kakadu right? Thats a national park...so as far as I am concerned you are in the crocodiles domain there. If you are fishing and are killed...tough luck its a national park.
 
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I'm wondering why MMAFAN hates people beating up the truth but has no qualms doing it himself. Yes one sheep is taken and a whole wolf pack is taken out get real. Also once one lion attacks a human it will forever, have any proof to back that ridiculous assertion up? Or that whole prides go into villages and kill them. I have not heard of any of this so if you could point me in the right direction I would be very happy.
By the way I'm from the US and have lived in South Africa for a little.
 
I'm wondering why MMAFAN hates people beating up the truth but has no qualms doing it himself. Yes one sheep is taken and a whole wolf pack is taken out get real. Also once one lion attacks a human it will forever, have any proof to back that ridiculous assertion up? Or that whole prides go into villages and kill them. I have not heard of any of this so if you could point me in the right direction I would be very happy.
By the way I'm from the US and have lived in South Africa for a little.

Whooah whooah there Zack! Mmafan has used google, seen a bear and a water moccassin before! I'd be inclined to take his word for it! :rolleyes:
 
Unlike USA local people actually live in National Parks here

Unless its a bull in musti or mother with calf elephants are hardly a threat to anything except maize crops etc
Yes there are fatalities
Yes these fatalities will increase as people push the remaining herds into less hospitable areas
Yes their numbers are rapidly increasing inside National Parks
Yes they are already culling herds within those parks
[strange that you appear to accept culling of elephants within national parks but scream about culling an apex predator living close to people??]
Every other animal you listed as increasing in number, you added the proviso in national parks
Outside National Parks in Africa or Asia people dont co-exist with apex predators
They kill them
Simple as that
Bang Bang you cannot threaten my family any more and your meat was delicious
Apex predators outside National Parks grow less every day
You have quite obviously never been to either Asia or Africa

Some of the rivers are in Kakadu
Some are on the other side of Darwin
Some are in Darwin
In all areas of the Top End exactly the same thing is happening
Its getting a bit like Florida with one huge difference
Virtually any decent bit of water in Florida has a few gators
Kids swim with them You squeak like a baby gator and others will answer your call and come in to the shore
In mating season you call the big males just to watch them shiver their backs for a bit of fun
They are a pretty cool big lizard
Yes there are occasional fatalities but with a large population of humans and less natural tucker for them that is to be expected

Crocs are nothing like gators
There is simply no comparison except for general shape
Only an idiot would attempt to play with them

Of course they are recovering from hunting
Hunting stopped in the 1970s
So every croc born since then is a protected animal and has zero fear of humans
Add in the ones that were left over from before and you have 40+year old crocs with no fear
A 40year old croc will kill you without hesitation if it is hungry and there is nothing you can do to stop it
Culling by using professionals to remove selected numbers of mixed sized crocs will become necessary
Culling by this method is by far the most humane and successful way
No-one has ever suggested killing all the big crocs
They are a great tourist attraction and regardless of how I might sound I and every single person I know would totally oppose that

Your way with using 'hunters' to shoot crocs would never work
Some rich idiot with an overpowered rifle wandering around a back yard would be last thing anyone would want
Its a professional job just like any other and would need professionals to execute them cleanly and humanely
 
"For Bears I don't know about their overall population. I would assume they are doing alright. Bears are not dangerous to people like Big Cats are through. Surprise encounters with Mothers and Cubs constitute most attacks and bears can coexist with humans alot better than crocs and lions can. Their was a nut case who used to camp( by himself) in Katmai National Park with hundreds of bears each year...including being feet away from fights/mothers with cubs, bears fishing etc...and their was no real incident. After 13 years of doing this...him and his girlfriend were eventually killed and eaten by an old/weak male bear that was struggling to survive and it was a bear that they had never seen before and didn't know...."

I have seen the video footage shot by this Timothy character, and what you say is here is largely inflated and exaggerated. But you are a seppo...
 
I've put on my asbestos suit ("susbestos" as one of my Indigenous students called it haha)

I support controlled commercial hunting as a culling mechanism.

1) The culling goes on anyway, discretely or not.

2) A trained marksman fires simultaneously in most pro hunting scenarios to ensure a kill (always accredited to the ******** paying hunter) The dollars paid are considerable.

3) It can be a big revenue earner for people living in remoteCommunities with 0 economic activity.

4) when a Community gains an economic benefit from local wildlife they protect that wildlife with greater enthusiasm.

There is commercial hunting of Banteng cattle (last wild herd in the world apparently) on Cobourg Peninsular and it provides the traditional owners with a good source of income and the research has shown the culling of the biggest bulls gives the young blokes a chance and the population has increased.

I have no problem with the SUSTAINABLE utilisation of wildlife. Djelk Rangers in Maningrida sustainably harvest croc and long necked turtle eggs for hatching and sale. Goyder River Rainbow Fish (easily the most majestic of their kind) are collected in Ramingining for sale in the mexican states. The take rate is tiny in terms of the population.

Surely it is better to have an ecosystem intact and the local population protecting it. Back to the start.
 
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Steve
Is suspestos another James Hardie product??
Mightnt have to cull a few
Just hit sir James up for bit of cash and blame it on the susbestos??
 
I'm wondering why MMAFAN hates people beating up the truth but has no qualms doing it himself. Yes one sheep is taken and a whole wolf pack is taken out get real. Also once one lion attacks a human it will forever, have any proof to back that ridiculous assertion up? Or that whole prides go into villages and kill them. I have not heard of any of this so if you could point me in the right direction I would be very happy.
By the way I'm from the US and have lived in South Africa for a little.

Just had a whole post done and then reply and it said "token has expired" took awhile to write the post and I don't feel like writing it up again.. I will try to respond to your post later tonight or tomorrow.

Sorry about the wait...I will try to reply to you later tonight.
 
If I have a big reply goin' on, I usually copy it before I hit the reply button, just in case (if I can remember).
 
mmafan, why are all your posts trying to disprove that Australian animals are super dangerous or whatever. Its always you bringing it up, why cant you just ignore it and spare the thread?

I've asked before and I will ask again, do you even keep reptiles? Or did you just join this site to moan about how Aussie animals arent as bad as everyone says?
 
To Waruikazi

First off Id like to say that even though your free to your own opinion saying that a crocodile or any living creature should rather be killed than rellocated is just ridiculous crocodiles hunt for food they dont just come into your house with a handgun or knife with the intent of killing your family your thought process must be very delapidated to think this way but then I cant help but think you just say these sort of these sort of things just for the sake of causing an argument to make your life a little less mundane? i hope this is the reason because if that really is the mindset that you have aqquired from your life I feel sympathetic towards you and what you must have been through to become such a warped minded individual everything has the right to live and if there is a situation where instead of using a barbaric measure wich you imply and having a second chance well in my opinion the secoind chance is the best way maybe you should try to get some help before your mental status declines and you may end up needing the same treatment you suggest to an animal that is only doing what comes natural to it.

Thankyou
 
Thoma, In the perfect world, what you're saying Is correct!, but what people are saying on this thread, Is that, to sustain Croc populations In the top end, at equable numbers, compromises have to be met, and as much as I hate the death of any animal, it is a global problem affecting countless numbers of large wildlife....our feet have been far too big, for far too long :(
 
To Waruikazi

First off Id like to say that even though your free to your own opinion saying that a crocodile or any living creature should rather be killed than rellocated is just ridiculous crocodiles hunt for food they dont just come into your house with a handgun or knife with the intent of killing your family your thought process must be very delapidated to think this way but then I cant help but think you just say these sort of these sort of things just for the sake of causing an argument to make your life a little less mundane? i hope this is the reason because if that really is the mindset that you have aqquired from your life I feel sympathetic towards you and what you must have been through to become such a warped minded individual everything has the right to live and if there is a situation where instead of using a barbaric measure wich you imply and having a second chance well in my opinion the secoind chance is the best way maybe you should try to get some help before your mental status declines and you may end up needing the same treatment you suggest to an animal that is only doing what comes natural to it.

Thankyou

I'm pretty sure Waruikazi gave reasons why relocation was not a good option. I don't see your solutions to solve the problem of the crocodiles returning?
 
surely we can find a better option rather than putting a bullet through their head, what happened before when crocodiles werent protected we nearly lost them, theres always options, but then everyones entitled to their own opinions and this is mine. :(
 
surely we can find a better option rather than putting a bullet through their head, what happened before when crocodiles werent protected we nearly lost them, theres always options, but then everyones entitled to their own opinions and this is mine. :(

That is the problem though there isn't really any other option. There are too many nuisance crocs to relocate them all (not that relocation does much good), there are too many to send them all to zoos, farms etc. No one is saying we should make them a non protected species again just that there should be a sustained cull. I hate the fact that innocent animals have to die but in this case it just isn't possible to do anything else.
 
surely we can find a better option rather than putting a bullet through their head, what happened before when crocodiles werent protected we nearly lost them, theres always options, but then everyones entitled to their own opinions and this is mine. :(

Graham Webb, world's foremost authority on salties said "give me the navy, the army and the airforce and I still couldn't make them extinct. They were around before the dinosaurs, ate dinosaurs and will probably outlast us"

You need to understand how dangerous these guys are. They are superb ambush predators that plan their attacks and I have watched them pulling in full grown cattle on Coroboree Billabong. Relocation doesn't work they just come back. So what are the "better options" you mention.
 
To Thoma1234

My life is far from mundane, i went for a drive to our local pub for dinner on Friday night. On the way back my girlfriend and i spotted 9 crocs on the road side, that is a far from mundane life! Not to mention all the snakes and pigs we found!

I'm tough enough to not get upset at your ad hominem attack on me. I will also make it clear that my comments are not just my opinions. There is alot of research that will back up what i say and living and interacting with these creatures, i think makes what i say more than just opinion. What is your experience/expertise/research that discredits the statements that other members and i are making?

Just while we are on the topic of the animal doing what is natural to it. Is it not natural for us to want to look after and protect the people in our community?

Just to make it very clear, i am not advocating wide spread culling of crocodiles. I am advocating the removal of crocodiles that are posing an unacceptable risk to our safety in ways that are humane and economically acceptable.

You're welcome.

And just a question for everyone that wants the problem crocs to go to croc farms. Do any of you actually know what goes on in croc farms? And how they get a lot of their crocodiles?

To Waruikazi

First off Id like to say that even though your free to your own opinion saying that a crocodile or any living creature should rather be killed than rellocated is just ridiculous crocodiles hunt for food they dont just come into your house with a handgun or knife with the intent of killing your family your thought process must be very delapidated to think this way but then I cant help but think you just say these sort of these sort of things just for the sake of causing an argument to make your life a little less mundane? i hope this is the reason because if that really is the mindset that you have aqquired from your life I feel sympathetic towards you and what you must have been through to become such a warped minded individual everything has the right to live and if there is a situation where instead of using a barbaric measure wich you imply and having a second chance well in my opinion the secoind chance is the best way maybe you should try to get some help before your mental status declines and you may end up needing the same treatment you suggest to an animal that is only doing what comes natural to it.

Thankyou
 
My life is far from mundane, i went for a drive to our local pub for dinner on Friday night. On the way back my girlfriend and i spotted 9 crocs on the road side, that is a far from mundane life! Not to mention all the snakes and pigs we found!
When I was in NT I was a hell a lot more scared of pigs than crocs, practically jumped a meter every time I thought I heard pigish sounds.


I agree a sustained cull of crocs is most likely the best option. I mean kangaroos are culled sustainably and they are not even an apex predator that are making it dangerous for people to live. Besides the crocs killed can be eaten which makes this pretty much ecologically sustainable harvesting if done right.
 
I don't want to see them culled nesecarily. I'm not apposed to the idea of trophy hunting either.

But i do want to see the problem animals removed.
 
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