Another croc caught

[waruikazi]

You Northerners are a bunch of tarts, good job you dont live in parts of Africa, where the niles kill, a hell of a lot more people than here, but manage to cohabit with them, you'd be calling for Nuking, not culling....

Really, if you think about it, we're just lucky we don't have bees up here! :lol:

 

[cement]

Gordo,

What interests me, is the thought of the TO's living with the crocodile up until white man invaded.
Surely there were more crocs of a larger average size then today. There would have been some sort of natural balance as well.

Also was Arnhem Land ever hunted? I thought Arnhem Land was off limits to all but the disrespectful white croc hunters, back in the hunting days.

What has changed since the times before white man? Is it just general public perceptions, including those of the TO's of today? They have the means to remove them now, is that the difference between living with them "harmoniously" and not?

 

[mmafan555]

You Northerners are a bunch of tarts, good job you dont live in parts of Africa, where the niles kill, a hell of a lot more people than here, but manage to cohabit with them, you'd be calling for Nuking, not culling....

Yeah and unlike in Australia...the people in Africa are forced to directly use the rivers/waterways and come in close contact with the crocs very often. Then throw in Hippos and on land Lions, Elephants, Cape Buffalo, Rhinos, Hyenas, Leopards, a variety of venomous snakes and I think you assesment of Waruikazi being a "tart" is spot on.

And Niles in certain areas can grow to huge sizes like Salties.

 

[longqi]

Yes Niles are big
Yes the people live with the few that are left
Yes the Nile croc is still actively hunted for both skins and trophies and is very timid except at the crossings
Yes it is a silent secretive hunter exactly the same as ours were even five years ago
Yes there are few huge Niles in Game parks
Yes most African have never even seen those animals mentioned above apart from on David Attenborough or in Game Parks

I have been pretty lucky in the last 30 years to have fished most of the Cape Top End and Kimberly Coast
10 years ago you were pretty lucky if you spotted any croc outside of a very few favourite places and with a pretty good local guide
Now only a blind man couldnt find one, without a guide, and within a rapidly shortening distance from KFC and Mackas
For some reason the Kimberley hasnt had the huge increase in numbers the NT has
[it has increased in numbers but not to the same extent in my opinion]
The only river I personally fished last trip was this one below
The East Aligator is way way way overstocked with small and medium sized crocs and probably with too many big ones too
Every single fisherman will say exactly the same thing about the numbers and lack of fear in almost every river system in the top end
In 30 years fishing I have lost a few fish to crocs
But by few I mean few and it was usually totally unexpected and a reason to go OH WOW LOOK AT THAT
Last trip I lost five from different areas down the river
One sat directly behind the motor as if daring me to try again
That is NOT normal behaviour for crocs
Some pools had two or three crocs over 4metres in them
That is NOT normal behaviour
The mouth of the river on a run out tide was a bloody scary place to be
All sizes of crocs who didnt care less about an outboard motor

Instead of camping near the mouth as usual I went about 3ks West towards the South Aligator
In the morning track marks around the boat and about 4metres of croc sitting just off shore
That river is flat out scary in a small boat and I have fished the Zambesi the Limpopo and Lake Tanganyika without a qualm
[although big hippos can tend to be nappy changing time]
Hippos are the one animal tribal communities in Africa fear the most even though snakes kill more people each year

In my wildest dreams I would never have imagined that there would be that many crocs anywhere in Aus during my lifetime

For tourists like myself, who go there infrequently, they were a wonderful attraction
But for people who have to live with them and learn again the old ways they are an ever growing menace

Maybe 80 years ago the local people had different methods of dealing with crocs
But then hunting really took off and they were virtually exterminated from many river systems
So the old ways are long forgotten now in many cases
So we have two things happening at once
We have a huge increase in crocs and they have no fear of humans
We have people who have been raised without too much fear because crocs were shy and in limited numbers
When swimming holes that have been safe since before your grandfather was born are now potential death traps something has to give

With the large number of medium to big crocs steadily increasing they have no option but to move to other river systems
They usually head West
After the East South and West Adelaides next port of call is getting right into more densely populated areas
Then they reach Darwin Harbour and all the estuaries around there

There is a favourite swimming hole at a spring about 25 minutes from Darwin
Beautiful crystal clear water
They pulled a 4.7 metre from there three years ago when I was camped there
No-one had ever heard of anything like that in living memory
Not a usual habitat for a big croc
But something bigger had forced him to set up home there

So yes I personally believe that culling will be very necessary sooner rather than later
I also firmly believe that anyone who can manage to survive in outlying communities during the wet cannot possibly be any form of "tart"
Even in the cities it is called suicide season and not without cause
Ive had an interesting life but I wouldnt volunteer to live out there then

 

[waruikazi]

Gordo,

What interests me, is the thought of the TO's living with the crocodile up until white man invaded.
Surely there were more crocs of a larger average size then today. There would have been some sort of natural balance as well.

Also was Arnhem Land ever hunted? I thought Arnhem Land was off limits to all but the disrespectful white croc hunters, back in the hunting days.

What has changed since the times before white man? Is it just general public perceptions, including those of the TO's of today? They have the means to remove them now, is that the difference between living with them "harmoniously" and not?

I don't know that we can assume that there were more or larger animals before settlement. But everything has changed since settlement. The whole dynamics of the countrie's biodiversity have changed and i don't just mean in relation to numbers and sizes of crocs, hunting would have been different with the availability of animals that are all but gone from the landscape now, there would have been less need to go to the water. Fewer people in a given area would mean that less dangerous areas could be hunted because less food would be needed. etc etc.

Traditional law was also used to keep people safe. Alot of 'sacred' areas are given that status just to keep people out because the area was no longer safe.

I would love to offer some more insight into traditional lifestyle previous to settlement compared to now but i can't because i don't know.

I don't know if Arnhem land was ever hunted but i would assume parts of it were especially here in Oenpelli because we are the first community in Arnhem only 20km over the East Alligator river.

There is a skull, i think in the NT museum, that has a stone spear head lodged in it. It would have been much harder but killing crocs has always been part of traditional life out here. But either way, life has changed.

I'm feeling that there are people involved in this conversation that think the killing out here is willy nilly, it's not. Only the problem large crocs are removed and when the bodies can be safely removed from the water they are eaten.

mmafan

Get your sorry back end off your computer chair and go and get some life experience. Watching the discovery channel does not cut the mustard! Until you have some real experience with the things you like to think you know so much about your opinions count for nothing. You are more than welcome to hold those opinions but make sure you label them as you inexperienced opinion and stop spouting them like gospel.

 

[ianinoz]

I highly doubt it was that long... But first I must say I just re read my post and I sounded like a prick so I am sorry... It just annoys me when people use exaggerated and often completely wrong facts to kind of justify killing an animal.. You see it with Wolves in the US. You hear these absurd fear driven stories of "enormous Canadian Wolves"( Wolves from Canada were released into Yellowstone) that are huge and kill all the elk and cattle blah blah blah. When in reality studies have shown that the Wolves are very similar in size to the Wolves that originally lived in the area and that the effect on cattle and bovids is minimal. Of course the hunting lobby would want to push false exaggerated stories of Wolves to the public...because Wolves equal less Elk and Bovids for them to hunt. My point is if your going to make arguments for culling/removing etc just at least use accurate arguments.

Niles can also get huge..in fact in some regions of Africa they probably are similar in size as Salties and just as dangerous.

The Adelaide River in NT seems to have huge crocodiles

My father, saw that animal in the flesh, he went back to Normanton in the hope of shooting and killing it (something about a bounty being offered to kill it).
He knew the area very well having been a prof croc hunter (amongst other things such as a stockman) in the 1930s before he volunteered to join the AIF at the outset of WWII.

He told me it caused quite a sensation owing to the enormous size of the beast.

I'm sure there must still be photos of it about in the possession of locals (from Normanton at the time).

There's a replica (made from fibreglass) of another enormous croc that was killed in the Kimberleys (it's in a park in the Derby) , it inhabited the 5 Rivers area , that is reputed to be life sized and was about the same size as the Normanton monster croc too. If it's accurately scaled, I can relate to why the locals would have been so terrified it hanging about the local boat ramp, jetty and how menacing it's shear size would have been.

He also said that most people who shot crocs in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s were not shooting them for trophies or for the skins. They would put a bullet into the tail of crocs who were hanging around and so crocs learnt to fear people and would avoid people. This no longer happens because they are protected and the crocs no longer fear people, and so with their increasing numbers, a huge problem is developing.

 

[waruikazi]

I have seen a picture of the Normanton croc (i think) and the one critcism i have of it is that the animal is disgustingly bloated making an accurate guess on the size pretty difficult. There is no doubting that it was a very large croc.

The largest croc i have seen was one scary monster and is rumoured to have taken a young boy back in the 80's when it was smaller. It was in a billabong that joined the East Alligator, i don't think it would have made 6m but it would have been 1.5m wide in the belly. But even if they only got to 3m they are still scary beasts!

 

[kawasakirider]

How can someone definitively say that a certain croc was responsible for am attack in the 80's?

Sounds like bs. Crocs take people, sure, but pinpointing the right one is a matter of luck.

 

[mmafan555]

Yes Niles are big
Yes the people live with the few that are left
Yes the Nile croc is still actively hunted for both skins and trophies and is very timid except at the crossings
Yes it is a silent secretive hunter exactly the same as ours were even five years ago
Yes there are few huge Niles in Game parks
Yes most African have never even seen those animals mentioned above apart from on David Attenborough or in Game Parks

I have been pretty lucky in the last 30 years to have fished most of the Cape Top End and Kimberly Coast
10 years ago you were pretty lucky if you spotted any croc outside of a very few favourite places and with a pretty good local guide
Now only a blind man couldnt find one, without a guide, and within a rapidly shortening distance from KFC and Mackas
For some reason the Kimberley hasnt had the huge increase in numbers the NT has
[it has increased in numbers but not to the same extent in my opinion]
The only river I personally fished last trip was this one below
The East Aligator is way way way overstocked with small and medium sized crocs and probably with too many big ones too
Every single fisherman will say exactly the same thing about the numbers and lack of fear in almost every river system in the top end
In 30 years fishing I have lost a few fish to crocs
But by few I mean few and it was usually totally unexpected and a reason to go OH WOW LOOK AT THAT
Last trip I lost five from different areas down the river
One sat directly behind the motor as if daring me to try again
That is NOT normal behaviour for crocs
Some pools had two or three crocs over 4metres in them
That is NOT normal behaviour
The mouth of the river on a run out tide was a bloody scary place to be
All sizes of crocs who didnt care less about an outboard motor

Instead of camping near the mouth as usual I went about 3ks West towards the South Aligator
In the morning track marks around the boat and about 4metres of croc sitting just off shore
That river is flat out scary in a small boat and I have fished the Zambesi the Limpopo and Lake Tanganyika without a qualm
[although big hippos can tend to be nappy changing time]
Hippos are the one animal tribal communities in Africa fear the most even though snakes kill more people each year

In my wildest dreams I would never have imagined that there would be that many crocs anywhere in Aus during my lifetime

For tourists like myself, who go there infrequently, they were a wonderful attraction
But for people who have to live with them and learn again the old ways they are an ever growing menace

Maybe 80 years ago the local people had different methods of dealing with crocs
But then hunting really took off and they were virtually exterminated from many river systems
So the old ways are long forgotten now in many cases
So we have two things happening at once
We have a huge increase in crocs and they have no fear of humans
We have people who have been raised without too much fear because crocs were shy and in limited numbers
When swimming holes that have been safe since before your grandfather was born are now potential death traps something has to give

With the large number of medium to big crocs steadily increasing they have no option but to move to other river systems
They usually head West
After the East South and West Adelaides next port of call is getting right into more densely populated areas
Then they reach Darwin Harbour and all the estuaries around there

There is a favourite swimming hole at a spring about 25 minutes from Darwin
Beautiful crystal clear water
They pulled a 4.7 metre from there three years ago when I was camped there
No-one had ever heard of anything like that in living memory
Not a usual habitat for a big croc
But something bigger had forced him to set up home there

So yes I personally believe that culling will be very necessary sooner rather than later
I also firmly believe that anyone who can manage to survive in outlying communities during the wet cannot possibly be any form of "tart"
Even in the cities it is called suicide season and not without cause
Ive had an interesting life but I wouldnt volunteer to live out there then

Wow I didn't know it was that much of a problem....Like I said I only have a qualm if people are using absurd fear driven and wrong stories to justify a cull...If what you are saying is true than a cull will probably have to happen sooner or later... Maybe instead of a cull they should give out sport hunting licenses to people for problem crocs and then the money can either go to the aboriginal community or maybe to other conservation programs...That seems much better than just going all "Sarah Palin" and machine gunning crocs from a helicopter which serves no good.

I think you are underrating the Nile Croc and the danger it poses immensely. They are not that rare at all..In fact their are 300,000-500,000 in the wild and while they are hunted outside of national parks...They are a menace to people who are forced to fish and use the rivers for their lively hoods. In Africa many of the settlements are situated directly on or right near the rivers and people are killed by crocs and hippos all the time. Nile Crocs in many regions are not shy and afraid of humans at all. They are every bit as dangerous as Salties and for some populations probably the same size

The Nile kills thousands of people each year in Africa
Crocodiles kill eight in Zimbabwe dam - Monsters and Critics
Crocodiles Kill 9 Children Near Angolan River - Africa - Around the globe - World - Dalje.com
http://allafrica.com/stories/200706010480.html
Uganda: rise in crocodile attacks on humans | Radio Netherlands Worldwide

And Lions are incredibly dangerous and often bold around humans aswell. They may be even more dangerous than Crocodiles. In some regions of Africa you even hear of prides going into villages and just attacking and killing numerous people.. And when a lion kills 1 person.... If it is not killed you can bet your life it will start attacking humans at every opportunity until it is killed.

Hippos kill many many people aswell and are extremely territorial against anything in the water. But I am not sure they kill more people than Crocodiles. Elephants and Buffalo also kill hundreds of people a year in Africa.

The danger of living in the NT with Salties is not even remotely comparable to living in Africa. Niles are just like Salties in aggression/lack of fear of people and then you have lions, elephants, hippos, buffalo which kill tons of people aswell in Africa

 

[waruikazi]

That's why i said RUMOURED! It is not definitive!

This particular croc used to live further down stream near another very large croc (Eric from ARP). Two boys went missing in the 80's after playing at Cahills crossing. Eric was captured and sent away, this other croc disappeared upstream and it is supposed to be the one i saw living in this billabong.

 

[kawasakirider]

That's why i said RUMOURED! It is not definitive!

This particular croc used to live further down stream near another very large croc (Eric from ARP). Two boys went missing in the 80's after playing at Cahills crossing. Eric was captured and sent away, this other croc disappeared upstream and it is supposed to be the one i saw living in this billabong.

I know you said rumored, I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular, I see how you got that idea though. But you just said "this particular croc lived further down stream" how can you be sure unless it was tagged?

 

[waruikazi]

Mr. broken record

I'll say this slowly with lots of white space around so hopefully you understand.



It is not a competition!!!!



Crocodiles are dangerous no matter where they are, along with a very large number of animals. How ever you like to understate the problem of crocodiles in the NT and other northern parts of Australia, it makes no difference to the real situation we have here on the ground. We know there are problem animals in other parts of the world, but we don't live in other parts of the world! We have a problem here that we are dealing with.

Wow I didn't know it was that much of a problem....Like I said I only have a qualm if people are using absurd fear driven and wrong stories to justify a cull...If what you are saying is true than a cull will probably have to happen sooner or later... Maybe instead of a cull they should give out sport hunting licenses to people for problem crocs and then the money can either go to the aboriginal community or maybe to other conservation programs...That seems much better than just going all "Sarah Palin" and machine gunning crocs from a helicopter which serves no good.

I think you are underrating the Nile Croc and the danger it poses immensely. They are not that rare at all..In fact their are 300,000-500,000 in the wild and while they are hunted outside of national parks...They are a menace to people who are forced to fish and use the rivers for their lively hoods. In Africa many of the settlements are situated directly on or right near the rivers and people are killed by crocs and hippos all the time. Nile Crocs in many regions are not shy and afraid of humans at all. They are every bit as dangerous as Salties and for some populations probably the same size

The Nile kills thousands of people each year in Africa
Crocodiles kill eight in Zimbabwe dam - Monsters and Critics
Crocodiles Kill 9 Children Near Angolan River - Africa - Around the globe - World - Dalje.com
http://allafrica.com/stories/200706010480.html
Uganda: rise in crocodile attacks on humans | Radio Netherlands Worldwide

And Lions are incredibly dangerous and often bold around humans aswell. They may be even more dangerous than Crocodiles. In some regions of Africa you even hear of prides going into villages and just attacking and killing numerous people.. And when a lion kills 1 person.... If it is not killed you can bet your life it will start attacking humans at every opportunity until it is killed.

Hippos kill many many people aswell and are extremely territorial against anything in the water. But I am not sure they kill more people than Crocodiles. Elephants and Buffalo also kill hundreds of people a year in Africa.

The danger of living in the NT with Salties is not even remotely comparable to living in Africa. Niles are just like Salties in aggression/lack of fear of people and then you have lions, elephants, hippos, buffalo which kill tons of people aswell in Africa

 

[mmafan555]

mmafan

Get your sorry back end off your computer chair and go and get some life experience. Watching the discovery channel does not cut the mustard! Until you have some real experience with the things you like to think you know so much about your opinions count for nothing. You are more than welcome to hold those opinions but make sure you label them as you inexperienced opinion and stop spouting them like gospel.

I have plenty of experience dealing with very dangerous animals...I lived in Florida and Canada and have seen numerous dangerous animals in my lifetime.

 

[Red-Ink]

mmafan555

You really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the dangers of Australian animals... You come on here and argue on several threads that they are not, sighting reasons that they dont kill that much people and that we use them to scare tourist. Mate that logic is severely flawed, for one why would we want to scare tourist? Counter productive dont you think towards the industry? Tell you what's more counter productive to our tourism industry.... a backpacker getting bitten by a venomous snake or spider or killed by a croc. That's why we warm them.

You say not many people here in Australia die from our animals.... there's a reason for that, we know they dangerous so we generally avoid them plus there's really not that many of us in ratio to the land mass to come in contact with them. We warn tourist that's why there's not many deaths, the ones that are unfortunate enough to be killed by them are the ones that did not listen or the ones that may share the same notion as you that we "talk them up".

 

[waruikazi]

I have plenty of experience dealing with very dangerous animals...I lived in Florida and Canada and have seen numerous dangerous animals in my lifetime.

You are a super star at editing your posts!

Do you have ANY experience with the Australian dangerous animals you spout so much of? Please detail it.

 

[kawasakirider]

I'm not jumping on anyone's side... But an alligator from florida can't be compared to a croc.

 

[mmafan555]

You are a super star at editing your posts!

Do you have ANY experience with the Australian dangerous animals you spout so much of? Please detail it.

First tell me which( in particular) "spouts" of mine do you disagree with. I only really remember making 3 claims about Australian animals and none of them were really anything major..Is saying that Africa and Asia have more overall dangerous animals than Australia really anything major?..I thought that would be very obvious.

I'm not jumping on anyone's side... But an alligator from florida can't be compared to a croc.

Yes that is 100 percent true. A salty or a nile is a whole different animal than a gator...But a gator is still a dangerous animal and I did deal with rattlesnakes, water moccasins, black bears etc. and in Canada I did see Grizzly Bears and Cougars on very rare occasions.

 

[waruikazi]

I'm not jumping on anyone's side... But an alligator from florida can't be compared to a croc.

Don't fall into the same tricks as mmafan. If you don't have personal experince with them then you don't know and can't make that claim. Watching discovery channel and youtube doesn't cut it, in the water i doubt they would be very different at all.

First tell me which( in particular) "spouts" of mine do you disagree with. I only really remember making 3 claims about Australian animals and none of them were really anything major..Is saying that Africa and Asia have more overall dangerous animals than Australia really anything major?..I thought that would be very obvious.



Yes that is 100 percent true. A salty or a nile is a whole different animal than a gator...But a gator is still a dangerous animal and I did deal with rattlesnakes, water moccasins, black bears etc. and in Canada I did see Grizzly Bears and Cougars on very rare occasions.

Do you have ANY experience with Australian dangerous animals? Jelly fish, crocodiles, and Aus elapids. What is your experience?

What spouts? Go back and read your posts, those spouts.

 

[SteveNT]

"The aboriginals who lived in northern Australia in areas occupied by saltys prior to colonisation had no choice about it. Their stone age weapons were no match for a big salty. "

Indigenous people have always hunted and eaten salties and freshies very successfully.

The first test case after they were protected was Parks trying to prosecute 5 old ladies who killed a good size salty while crabbing in the mangroves, and took it home for dinner. The judge threw the case out and said if a bunch of old ladies can overpower a croc good on them and stop wasting my time!

 

[longqi]

SteveT
Quote
The first test case after they were protected was Parks trying to prosecute 5 old ladies who killed a good size salty while crabbing in the mangroves, and took it home for dinner. The judge threw the case out and said if a bunch of old ladies can overpower a croc good on them and stop wasting my time! Unquote

Only in the Top End do you find judges with a bit of common sense
Way to go

Mmafan
Dont you understand the major thing you leave out of all your calculations
Population
The huge population increases in both Africa and Asia are what is forcing more contact between their animals and them
If Australia was exploding with people the way most of those countries are the results would be much more similar
But population wise Australia is both factually and figuratively speaking a desert
No-one on here will argue that both Asia and Africa have some of the most dangerous creatures on Earth but in every single case the numbers of those creatures is dropping quickly
The number and size of Salties is increasing at a very fast rate

I think they would be the worlds only major predator that this is true about
Apart from within National Parks or Game Reserves can you think of any others??
Possibly polar bears and doubtfully grizzly bears???
Neither of which would be called Asian or African??

While in some ways I can agree with encouraging trophy shooting use local guides so long as the money stayed local there are two things wrong with that
The """hunters"" would only want to kill trophy animals
"Hunting a sleeping croc" is hardly hunting in any way shape manner or form
unless of course you just drop a bleeding hunter into a pool with a rubber powered speargun and a face mask
I suppose we could also give them a knife if they wanted one
Might make it a bit fairer