Beardie Substrates

[benashki]

i have actually used the pellets that captainpantspie uses ( i think). Its a wood type kitty litter.

I used mine however in my rats cages. What i found is that is dissinegrates very quickly when exposed to water. I didnt really like it for this reason..made cage cleaning harder for me.

Either way..i am too paranoid to use anything other than papertowel for the beardies

 

[notechistiger]

I wonder how many people who share your opinion have ever tried sand for themselves, or are they just going on hearsay, with no actual experience on the subject??

What kind of experience? Dead dragons? I'm choosing not to expose my animals to something that could potentially kill them. Also, I have tried sand, but with snakes. I concluded that it was dusty, annoying for the animal and difficult to clean. I then thought of how my dragon likes to lick things, and decided that it wasn't worth the death of my beloved pet to make his enclosure look good.

 

[Ishah]

It's a funny insult! thats what it is IMO! pissed myself when I read it...
How long have you been using these pellets for exactly? Do you have a science degree and have you run extensive experiments on more than 10 beardies with paper, wood pellets and paper pellets and other various substrates? And have you done this from birth of the beardies to a significant age/length of time say 5 or so years to thoroughly conclude your findings? And done this under the close supervision of a highly experienced respectable scientist? Or are you one yourself? I highly doubt it! I may seem to be overexaggerating with that, but its nothing different to what you have been doing the whole time Just putting it into a language you are more familiar with pantspie

Also, you may not have experienced impaction via your method of substrate for various different reason, i.e. they haven't eaten enough of it, may not have been cold enough, you may not have been using it for a long enough period of time etc etc etc. These are probably the same reasons why some haven't experienced problems with sand as a substrate!

Also, a day to break down? Thats insane and IMO enough time to cause impaction if in the right circumstances...Although I have never been fortunate to experience it myself, nor have I shoved a camera thingo down their throats to monitor the breakdown process of the pellet... (So somebody with experience in impaction correct me if I'm wrong on the time it takes to get impacted...) have you? doubt it... If you had forced one or two down thier throat then a gastroscope or whatever they're called down their throats to monitor and film it, maybe your argument wouldn't be so unbelievable...I personally would love to know the REAL results of this instead of your assumptions and backyard experimenting with more water than would be in a beardie's stomach and no stomach fluids the key to conducting a proper experiment to show similar results to what would really happen, is to replicate as best you can, the environment and ingredients that your beardie actually is in and is eating etc etc...Something no average backyard scientist can do.

Why not just let them use what they use and you use what you use... and just accept it! There really isnt anything you can do to change their minds and obviously nothing they can do to change ur opinion... I personally think they are both just as bad as each other and prefer the use of newspaper... something I know for a fact they wont ingest! Why not try newspaper? or do you have some other random reason why its bad and will cause impaction? Forgive me if you havent stated your reasons previously, you HAVE been on a mad rampage on your high horse for the majority of this thread, and it has somewhat melded into a big blubbering blur to me.

Oh and incase you haven't observed it, beardies DO tend to taste a lot of their surroundings and when they are trying to get a cricket, like with sand, they can miss and get a mouthful of pellets! they may try to spit them all out, but some will still be ingested... I know this as my stupid brother uses petstore-bought plantation soil and wood chips and sand and all sorts of random substrates, much to my discust and objection... Yet he still has never once had a problem, except for dirty muddy beardies and blueys... Doesn't do much for my side ot the argument with him, but I can't stop him, so just deal with it as, eventually one will die on him for it and then I prove my case, but until then.... I just don't think about it... People, much like yourself panstpie, are very stubborn and somewhat ignorant at times, just accept that both sides are just as much as each other and deal with it...

 

[Ishah]

One more thing, I personally think that the fake grass/astroturf looks pretty tacky and very fake, but each to their own I guess I'd rather the newspaper substrate for ease of cleaning and then make it look more natural with real branches, logs, rocks and for my own personal touch, old cows bones... I think that really puts an edge on it! All steralised for days on end before introduced to my beardies of course! I think the bones are great! Really hold the heat and gives it a nice feel to the whole "aura" of the enclosure!

 

[Dave]

It's a funny insult! thats what it is IMO! pissed myself when I read it...
How long have you been using these pellets for exactly? Do you have a science degree and have you run extensive experiments on more than 10 beardies with paper, wood pellets and paper pellets and other various substrates? And have you done this from birth of the beardies to a significant age/length of time say 5 or so years to thoroughly conclude your findings? And done this under the close supervision of a highly experienced respectable scientist? Or are you one yourself? I highly doubt it! I may seem to be overexaggerating with that, but its nothing different to what you have been doing the whole time Just putting it into a language you are more familiar with pantspie

Also, you may not have experienced impaction via your method of substrate for various different reason, i.e. they haven't eaten enough of it, may not have been cold enough, you may not have been using it for a long enough period of time etc etc etc. These are probably the same reasons why some haven't experienced problems with sand as a substrate!

Also, a day to break down? Thats insane and IMO enough time to cause impaction if in the right circumstances...Although I have never been fortunate to experience it myself, nor have I shoved a camera thingo down their throats to monitor the breakdown process of the pellet... (So somebody with experience in impaction correct me if I'm wrong on the time it takes to get impacted...) have you? doubt it... If you had forced one or two down thier throat then a gastroscope or whatever they're called down their throats to monitor and film it, maybe your argument wouldn't be so unbelievable...I personally would love to know the REAL results of this instead of your assumptions and backyard experimenting with more water than would be in a beardie's stomach and no stomach fluids the key to conducting a proper experiment to show similar results to what would really happen, is to replicate as best you can, the environment and ingredients that your beardie actually is in and is eating etc etc...Something no average backyard scientist can do.

Why not just let them use what they use and you use what you use... and just accept it! There really isnt anything you can do to change their minds and obviously nothing they can do to change ur opinion... I personally think they are both just as bad as each other and prefer the use of newspaper... something I know for a fact they wont ingest! Why not try newspaper? or do you have some other random reason why its bad and will cause impaction? Forgive me if you havent stated your reasons previously, you HAVE been on a mad rampage on your high horse for the majority of this thread, and it has somewhat melded into a big blubbering blur to me.

Oh and incase you haven't observed it, beardies DO tend to taste a lot of their surroundings and when they are trying to get a cricket, like with sand, they can miss and get a mouthful of pellets! they may try to spit them all out, but some will still be ingested... I know this as my stupid brother uses petstore-bought plantation soil and wood chips and sand and all sorts of random substrates, much to my discust and objection... Yet he still has never once had a problem, except for dirty muddy beardies and blueys... Doesn't do much for my side ot the argument with him, but I can't stop him, so just deal with it as, eventually one will die on him for it and then I prove my case, but until then.... I just don't think about it... People, much like yourself panstpie, are very stubborn and somewhat ignorant at times, just accept that both sides are just as much as each other and deal with it...

Does that make the others ignorant too then? Tiles are better then newspaper too. Who would use anything else when tiles is everything you need :lol:

Pro's:
Wears nails down naturally
insecsts can't hide
holds heat well
looks good (you can get brown/sandy coloured tiles if you want it to look 'natural'
CAN'T cause impaction :lol:
Easy to clean (take the tile out thats been soiled.. give it a wash etc place it back)
Lasts along time...

Con:
Costs more then newspaper

 

[falconboy]

Why don't you all just change to tiles and stop arguing.

 

[Ishah]

Does that make the others ignorant too then? Tiles are better then newspaper too. Who would use anything else when tiles is everything you need :lol:

Pro's:
Wears nails down naturally
insecsts can't hide
holds heat well
looks good (you can get brown/sandy coloured tiles if you want it to look 'natural'
CAN'T cause impaction :lol:
Easy to clean (take the tile out thats been soiled.. give it a wash etc place it back)
Lasts along time...

Con:
Costs more then newspaper

I was more referring to the apparent main debate, that being "sand vs wood or paper pellets" And just used one example of a more "neutral*" substrate, like newspaper, papertowel,and like you said tiles... Sorry I didn't list them all out....There are still probably many others ("neutral" substrates) that I have forgot to mention, but you get the idea don't you?

*Neutral meaning its not paper/woodchips or sand - the two that are being debated to death - And its hardly dangerous/less dangerous than most other substrates... But of course everyone is going to have a different opinion on what constitutes a "safe" substrate, as can already be seen in this thread

 

[the.badger]

Yeah I'll be using tiles when we get our first beardie. But if you want something cheap that looks a bit better than newspaper, try using butchers paper. It's a sandy brown colour and looks a bit more natural than newspaper, and it costs bugger all.

 

[=bECS=]

At least sand doesn't increase in size when ingested..
Adding wood or what ever the hell else is on those
pellets doesn't make them sound any better..ha
Your wrong x 4 .. and im done arguing with Mexicans.

LMFAO @ the last line :lol:

 

[Australis]

Mexicans? What the hell kind of insult is that?

The spicy kind i believe.

Again, you guys are arguing that my substrate is dangerous? But i don't see why? You are both using the most lethal of substrates? What exactly is your point?

I haven't used sand for a long time, just newspaper for me, easier to keep clean.
I'm honestly not that interested in your substrate, its just your so down on sand
being dangerous, but you use expanding pellets.. .which i personally have seen
kill Lizards, albeit not Dragons.. but lizards all the same... both have mouths and
stomachs, thought it might be worth mentioning.. no worries.

Have fun with your Beardies.. etc

Cheers,
Matt.

 

[Ishah]

The spicy kind i believe.

ROFPMSL! Thats gold! I thought just the mexican part was funny, but thats just awesome! never thought of that...

 

[gravitation]

See that's the thing, the topic of conversation wasn't 'sand vs pellets', it was whether or not sand can impact and kill a bearded which it can, i can seen no evidence of pellets doing so and if i had i probably would'nt be using them.

When i first started up i was using sand as told by a few storeclerks, started learning more, lost one dragon to impaction and i switched to newspaper, i had my beardies on newspaper for years. I started breeding and looked for something the dragons could nest and dig in, came across these pellets, successfully has many of my beardeds on this substrate for what would be over four-five years now with no mishaps

I also got given a rescue beardie and within about five days it was dead, two necropsys on both beardeds proved sand was the culprit. (and the rescue beardie was on newspaper as soon as i got it) He had many baths and laxatives, nothing worked.

I NEVER said they can't cause impaction (though i have seen NO evidence of it) but it's ALOT less likely than with sand.
No i'm not a scientist Ishah just a curious human being with alot of experience below her belt.

I've covered the whole licking and tasting the enclosure thing on another thread.
Sand particles get stuck to the saliva on the tongue of the lizard, it either gradually swallows more and more and the sand sits at the bass of the stomach, or it chomps up one lot of sand that eventually kills it.
The pellets are too solid and too heavy to be picked up simply by licking, i've observed it many times and they don't come off the ground, like i said i have only ever had one issue when my oldest bearded picked up a piece a long with carot my sister dropped onto the enclosure floor, she immediately spat it out and i'm assuming it was because it was too solid and didn't taste very nice.

and i don't feed in the enclosure at all.

I've seen various x-rays and necropsys done on beardeds and i've only ever seen sand impaction cases, and one bearded that had swallowed a toy soldier.

 

[Ishah]

See that's the thing, the topic of conversation wasn't 'sand vs pellets', it was whether or not sand can impact and kill a bearded which it can, i can seen no evidence of pellets doing so and if i had i probably would'nt be using them.

When i first started up i was using sand as told by a few storeclerks, started learning more, lost one dragon to impaction and i switched to newspaper, i had my beardies on newspaper for years. I started breeding and looked for something the dragons could nest and dig in, came across these pellets, successfully has many of my beardeds on this substrate for what would be over four-five years now with no mishaps

I also got given a rescue beardie and within about five days it was dead, two necropsys on both beardeds proved sand was the culprit. (and the rescue beardie was on newspaper as soon as i got it) He had many baths and laxatives, nothing worked.

I NEVER said they can't cause impaction (though i have seen NO evidence of it) but it's ALOT less likely than with sand.
No i'm not a scientist Ishah just a curious human being with alot of experience below her belt.

I've covered the whole licking and tasting the enclosure thing on another thread.
Sand particles get stuck to the saliva on the tongue of the lizard, it either gradually swallows more and more and the sand sits at the bass of the stomach, or it chomps up one lot of sand that eventually kills it.
The pellets are too solid and too heavy to be picked up simply by licking, i've observed it many times and they don't come off the ground, like i said i have only ever had one issue when my oldest bearded picked up a piece a long with carot my sister dropped onto the enclosure floor, she immediately spat it out and i'm assuming it was because it was too solid and didn't taste very nice.

and i don't feed in the enclosure at all.

I've seen various x-rays and necropsys done on beardeds and i've only ever seen sand impaction cases, and one bearded that had swallowed a toy soldier.

Maybe so, maybe not... but maybe we are just shedding light on some other things that can also cause impaction... Its all helpful tips none-the-less.

Bahahaha now that right there is one of the funniest things I have read when the person is trying to be 100% serious! Thanks for the laughs, its been fun!

Yes and both you and I have covered the missing food and getting a mouthful of substrate or substrate sticking to food items part... Think about it for a second will you? And howcan you be so sure it didnt inges a coule of pellets even though the main food item was spat out? you cant unless you dissected it then and there!

Does that make you feel special and like you know more than the rest of us? Because I'm sure that there are others on here that have witnessed similar if not more than you... Some are actually vets and do it on a semi-regular basis... Also, as I am aware, the wood pellets are relatively new to the use as substrate also would imagine pellets to be also, as I have not seen breeders choice and the like in supermarkets etc for that long... i.e. more that 5 or so years... and the amount of people that use pellets over other substrates wouldnt be very high i would imagine, so hence Of COURSE you wouldnt have seen many instances of pellet induced impaction! Also, you do know that breeders choice regularly has bits of plastic scattered throughout the whole bag of pellets dont you? I use it for my rats and I sometimes pick it all out as it can bug me at times. Not saying thats the brand you said you used, but it is stll a paper based pellet... and others might take your wacky advice not knowing of this fact and find themselves in some strife, so just clearing that up...

And I hghly doubt the pellets are too solid and too heavy to be picked up...also I thought you mentioned in a previous post that they arent too solid and dissintergrate very quickly??? Bit of a contradiction doncha think?

If you've personally witnessed a beardy die from swallowing a toy soldier, which is MUCH bigger than a single pellet... then what makes you sooo certain that they cant swallow more than one pellet and die from that? I'm sure both pellets and toy soldiers would have a similar distasteful factor about them, I might have to go try it sometime to confirm my assumptions tho to satisfy your urge to get another thing under your belt :lol: If I lick em and they both taste bad, you will have to take it out from under your belt as it would prove useless in ur next argument/debate.

Anyways some very amusing points you raised there... great laugh factor... thanks for that!

 

[Ishah]

See that's the thing, the topic of conversation wasn't 'sand vs pellets', it was whether or not sand can impact and kill a bearded

Just one more thing, sorry to be knit-picky here.. but the actual ORIGINAL question was.... as quoted...... da-da-da daaaaaaaaa.... Drum roll please......BAM! and the dirt is gone! (some might say:lol

Hi Guys,

At the moment im using newpaper as a substrate for my hatchlings.

I would like to go with something that looks nice in the enclosure.

Can anyone recommend some good substrates?

Cheers

As you will notice the main question was asking for recommendations for GOOD substrates to use and we are just pointing out some bad points for your suggested substrates and other substrates, as you are doing with the sand and newspaper suggestion, although i personally dont see the problem with using newspaper, definately nowhere NEAR as many problems as sand and pellets, but if they want something other than newspaper, like others suggested which i deem as safe, butchers paper or tiles sounds like a good alternative

Not once did it say in the original post, "does/can sand cause impaction (and ultimately death)?" because DUH! most people know there is an obvious risk! Maybe thats not the post you were on about, but how can you expect anyone to remember when its gone this way and that so many times over the last few days... hard to keep up with ya!

And there you have it folks just another example of how napisan does the job better! :lol::lol::lol:

Sorry kinda getting carried away in my own random laughable thoughts which is what thinking of you brings to mind Thanks

(Damn infomercials getting in my head again)

 

[=bECS=]

Just one more thing, sorry to be nit-picky here.. but the actual ORIGINAL question was.... as quoted...... da-da-da daaaaaaaaa.... Drum roll please......BAM! and the dirt is gone! (some might say:lol



As you will notice the main question was asking for recommendations for GOOD substrates to use and we are just pointing out some bad points for your suggested substrates and other substrates, as you are doing with the sand and newspaper suggestion, although i personally dont see the problem with using newspaper, definately nowhere NEAR as many problems as sand and pellets, but if they want something other than newspaper, like others suggested which i deem as safe, butchers paper or tiles sounds like a good alternative

And there you have it folks just another example of how napisan does the job better! :lol::lol::lol:

Sorry kinda getting carried away in my own random laughable thoughts which is what thinking of you brings to mind Thanks

(Damn infomercials getting in my head again)

lol, you can be the next demtel guy/girl errrrr :lol:

But wait , theres still more, ill thrown in a set of steak knives for dissecting absolutely free!
(see your not the only on thats in a late night dilerium, now if we can just sneak in a Pro Active and Ab Pro advert i think we will have late night infomercials covered )

Oh and at the end of the day, you choose what substrate you like, but everyone likes a good debate, i guess thats why this thread is still open!

 

[Ishah]

Bahahahahahaha for sure becs! "When I was a teen, my face looked like a peperoni pizza with extra cheese, then one of my friends suggested Pro-Activ, I was a bit dubious at first, as I had tried everything - BELIEVE me! But since trying Pro-Activ, I can go out and party like Jessica simpson and pull as many guys as Paris! So get your order of pro-active today... and if you call now you get this free "I'm not a pizza face anymore thanks to pro-activ" bumper sticker along with a badge and pencil case and ..... Don't forget the 60day money back guarantee!

And bloody ab-pro/king what a joke! Gotta love our latenight lives!
....Although.,... Easy-off bam, and napisan oxyaction plus is a daytime ad...:? Haha not to mention the doco commentary "as you can see... the lion takes its cub in its mouth and launches it off the cliff when its not behaving..."

Indeed good entertainment value it has been...

 

[=bECS=]

Bahahahahahaha for sure becs! "When I was a teen, my face looked like a peperoni pizza with extra cheese, then one of my friends suggested Pro-Activ, I was a bit dubious at first, as I had tried everything - BELIEVE me! But since trying Pro-Activ, I can go out and party like Jessica simpson and pull as many guys as Paris! So get your order of pro-active today... and if you call now you get this free "I'm not a pizza face anymore thanks to pro-activ" bumper sticker along with a badge and pencil case and ..... Don't forget the 60day money back guarantee!

And bloody ab-pro/king what a joke! Gotta love our latenight lives!

Indeed good entertainment value it has been...

Hahahaha, you know the scripts too well! The p diddy one cracks me up, although this thread has been more entertaining.
I used to use sand, but i stopped because it was messy, got smelly if they crapped and i wasnt home and kept getting caught in the glass tracks.

Then breeders choice till i started finding the plastic and metal bits in it.

Now i use whatevers handy at the time, be it paper or uncompressed paper litter, etc
Im not a fan of tiles, i found that if i wasnt around to catch them crapping, they walked through it and it ended up all over the place as there is nothing to absorb the liquid on tiles.

 

[Rainbow-Serpent]

Hey guys, I hear newspaper is the best, but what if your beardies love to dig?

 

[junglepython2]

What kind of experience? Dead dragons? I'm choosing not to expose my animals to something that could potentially kill them. Also, I have tried sand, but with snakes. I concluded that it was dusty, annoying for the animal and difficult to clean. I then thought of how my dragon likes to lick things, and decided that it wasn't worth the death of my beloved pet to make his enclosure look good.

Thanks for clearing that up, so you have absolutley no experience with sand and compaction yet you still preach........

 

[shamous1]

Sand

I have bred many CBD's over the past couple of years. I always use news paper when they are under 6 months old.

Sure in the wild they don't have the luxury of newspaper but impaction will certainly take care of a fair number of a clutch. Survival of the fittest I guess.

It's not worth the risk in captive bred hatchies. Just my opinion. Why take the chance in having part of your collection die?

I have even had a 3 year old suffer impaction so it can and will happen.