Beardy dramas

[Bourbs]

Hey guys, this one is a problem that has been resolved, but I just wanted to warn any other bearded dragon keepers so that my mistake isn't repeated by anyone else..

I have 2 beardies (1 male, 1 female).. The male is generally more active and moves around the tank alot, and the female tends to be more lazy just hanging out underneath the heat lamp most of the time (I have a heat lamp at one end of the tank and a UV lamp at the other) ..

The heat lamp died and I didn't get a replacement for a day or two, and my female got a case of the sniffles. She seemed to get better when I replaced the heat lamp so I thought nothing of it..

A couple of days ago I noticed my male's front left leg was swollen and he was reluctant to use it, (he had been chasing woodies around the night before the swelling happened, so I would say thats when the damage occured) so I got him and his girlfriend down to the vets. The vet x-rayed both dragons - to confirm their diagnosis of a chip fracture on the males elbow, and also for training purposes. The x-ray showed quite a difference in bone density levels. The male's bone density levels are normal, but the females levels are quite low.

Basically her time spent under the heat lamp instead of moving around under the UV lamp has come at a hefty cost. I had made the mistake of thinking that she was getting enough UV light when she would occasionally move around the tank, but unfortunately I was wrong

So now comes the task of bringing her density levels back up. Both dragons will be getting more natural sunlight during the day and I have gotten rid of the two lamps and will be just using one lamp that does heating as well as UV, and I will be increasing the females calcium intake.

The vet also discovered that her slight case of the sniffles was actually a bacterial infection, which she is now on antibiotics for.

While I realise that there will be a few of you reading this right now asking "what the hell was this person thinking", please be mindful of the fact that for most of us this is a learning curve, and while I realise that I made a couple of mistakes, they were simple ones to make and I have now fixed the problems. As I said at the start of this thread, I just don't want anyone else to make the same mistakes - especially considering that my actions were following the advice I was given when I got my first dragon

 

[mummydolittle]

Thank you for letting me know the problems you have had as I can now watch out with my baby beardies. I hope your little lady pulls up ok and your lad's elbow gets better.

Cheers Tam

 

[Brettix]

Glad you took them to the vets,sun lights the best medicine.
I put myne out to get sun everyday even though i use uva/uvb globes.

 

[Bourbs]

Yea I'm definately going to be giving sunlight a go.. I'll be moving house soon so it will be a little easier - I'll be positioning their tank near a window so they get the direct light (not at hot times during the day, probably early morning or late afternoon light).. Aaaaaand I am more than likely going to get them an outdoor enclosure so that they can run around in there when I have moved as well. For now it's sunlight as often as possible and the light upgrade. I'm just glad the problem was discovered in time before it became more serious. Luckily she hasnt even shown signs of low density and appears healthy apart from the bacterial infection so once the antibiotics clear that up and I bring her calcium levels back she should be good as new

 

[DiamondAsh]

Excellent thread. Good work on getting your animals to the vets Bourbs, just for that I give you a large round of applause. You'll have to get pics up so we can see how she's doing.

 

[Kirby]

this is why you use an apropriate UVB, and not cheapo's... a reptisun 10.0 (replaced every 6 months) at 8 inches away fromt he dragon (with proper supplimentation) will keep her healthy... and your also ment to place the UVB next to the basking spot, as they are sundwellers and spend most of their day here.

also, having her with a male. will increase stress, as they are solitary and the constant mating and dominace will stress her. the stress will lower her imune system, and play around with her body. why was his leg fractured, was it bitten? this is another reason why you should seperate.

over breeding (which you cannot stop, unless you seperate) will lower her calcium levels furthur, and drain her body of usefull vitamins and minerals, energy, and also add to stress.

the natural sun will do them good, what uvb DID you have, previouse to your knowledge of stages of MBD in these dragons? (considering they BOTH have signs, its probably not just because she wasnt under it alot)

did the vet offer liquid calcium, or alternative suppliments to quicken recovery? did he question diet? and how often you suppliment? and what you feed exactly?

(sorry if this sounds rude or confronting, im just trying to help you figure out what exactly happen (to learn from next time) and how we can fix things)

good luck!!!

 

[Brettix]

I'll be positioning their tank near a window so they get the direct light (not at hot times during the day, probably early morning or late afternoon light)

Did you know that glass will filter out the uv,as it will be against the window (glass) and the glass tank so it will only be getting light not uv.

 

[Kirby]

Did you know that glass will filter out the uv,as it will be against the window (glass) and the glass tank so it will only be getting light not uv.

the statistics are somthing like 99.8 %UVB and 14.something% UVA. there is no beneficial need to posistion the tank near the window. even if the window was open, the sun will raise the tanks temperature (even cool side) MUCH too high. a mesh vivarium, half covered by a towel, will do find out side. although check on them every 10mins..

making a 'brighter' tank, by use of added extra flourescents, and lights on int he room, will raise levels of activity and alertness, whilst loweringthe risk of UVC damage from tubes. especially the cheaper variety.

 

[dragon lady]

Yes..i just going to mention that....a friend made the mistake of placing her tube uv on top of a aquarium when she first got her 1st reptile (e.b.d) he over 18mnths deteriorated & he passed away March this year...tragic,she still hasnt forgiven herself.

LIFE IS A LEARNING CURVE..............& all on this forum are here to learn & share...its those who dont ask the questions needed that are not learning.

For my smaller juvies...i use bird cages, take the plastic bottom off & tent peg the wire cage part into the lawn
they love it... i have an unused outside avairy that is on cement for adults

 

[Helikaon]

its jstu oen big chain of events. she gets a chronic bacterial infection, which means she stays in the warmth a lot more to help her immune system cope. this then means that she isn't basking via uv as much and loses calcium. all i ahve to say is i am happy you took her to the vet. lucky they Xrayed both and not just the male to. but yes very good, and you are on top of things so no one can critisize you.

and yeah i am looking forward to pics

 

[Chris1]

good luck with getting them better and thanks for sharing ur experience,..

those mesh vivs from herpshop are great, my little ones spend a day or 2 a week on the sunny balcony in one of those,..(half in teh shade ofcourse) (of course they also have a repti glo 10 tube next to their basking light that they can get within 6 inches of)

personally i wouldnt keep a male and female together for stress and pregnancy reasons.

 

[Bourbs]

Thanks for all of your responses guys..

Just to clarify a couple of things brought up in responses - only the female has low bone density - they were both x-rayed and the male's levels are 100% normal. That is how I know that it isn't a result of the type of UV light I was using, it was purely the positioning of the light itself in relation to the hot spot in the tank. And the two of them actually get along quite well. My male is relatively young and hasn't even attempted mating with her so stress from mating and/or dominance isn't an issue - if it was there is no way I would keep them together for the simple fact it would be cruel.

The vet did question the diet, but I already knew that I had that part of it right - they get a variety of insects, fruit, and vege (broccoli, spinach, occasionally mango as a treat or avocado, cucumber, strawberries etc) and I was also dusting their food with calcium powder (unfortunately because the female wasn't spending any time in the UV she wasn't actually having any benefit from this)..

The UV globe (not including the light fitting) I had before cost me around $50 so it definately wasn't a cheapo light setup, it was the right type of globe, just bad positioning. The globe I now have is an Oz Bright UV Heat & Light, which is a mercury vapour bulb, and provides a much higher UV level than my original light. This will be the type of globe I use from now on (when the weather isn't too hot of course). And having them infront of an open window to get natural light will work because the top of the tank is reptile mesh, but I was mostly going for the window option to give them more natural sunlight, not purely for UV, and they wouldn't be unsupervised.

Kirby : I didn't take your response as rude or confronting, I am here to learn so all responses I get (good or bad) are welcome and I thank you for taking the time to make such a lengthy reply.

Helikaon : You got it in one. Unfortunate chain of events.

aaaand as for Cornelius (the male)'s chipped elbow, how he got it is a mystery. It wasn't bitten, as there were no bite marks, my assumption is that he either fell from his basking spot, or damaged himself while chasing woodies. I had what I thought was a completely safe tank for them to climb around in, but obviously something must have caused his injury so it is basically going to be a process of elimination until I work out what it was.

Pics will be up soon, just going to see if I can hunt down my camera

 

[Bourbs]

Oh yea I forgot to mention.. my dragons are western beardies.. way smaller than the ones you get in the eastern states and I have heard they have a slightly different personality as well - not sure if the personality bit is true or not but mine definately get along well together and I have never seen any aggression or signs of it between them

 

[Kirby]

brocolli and spinache, will bind to calcium slowing the absorption, so i would suggest not feeding these.. try endive, arugula (full grown rocket) and bock choy, or choy sum (go endive as the staple)

also avacado is HIGHELY toxic to reptile and most animals including rodents and some birds..

have a look at this, http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html

the oz bright, just because it was expensive, doesnt mean its good at all.. in future, if your going to dig up the cash for an MVB, i would suggest getting, Zoomed Powersun UV. this is the only 'good' MVB available in AUS, some pet stores ship in T-rex products, if you can.. get the T-rex active UV heat. and as i mentioned before a megaray from reptileuv.com

alot of bulbs bost ;optimum amount' but optimum for what? the make? the production? most bulbs put out close to nothing. you can see soem results here.. http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Researchmain.html its also proof that the NEC 10 black light is REALLY crap, and only puts out close to enough, if your dragon is within 3 inches.. and we all know thats not possible without dangers..

personally, i would seperate nowing that as it warms, they WILL mate and considering your not wanting too, they still will.. even just having him there, she is stressing. i know we all anthropomorphise our animals but in all seriouseness they are solitary by nature, and thrive alone.

if you have any questions or what me to clear up anything just ask, also did your vet suggest any changes in diet? did he pick up on the brocolli spinache and avocado thing? you should call him and ask for liquid calcium, either a shot or a palatable liquid supplimentation.

 

[Helikaon]

any cahcne we coudl see the Xrays?? hmm now that i think about it probably not as they need to be kept on premisis for quite a long time. himm thoguh that would have been interesting. they werent digital Xrays were they by chance?

 

[Kirby]

often the vet will photo copy them, if you ask nicely..

 

[Bourbs]

The vet didn't say anything about the types of vegies... She asked what the diet was, I told her the types of insects, and told her they also get a variety of fruit and vege, but she didnt even ask about what types.. It was probably my own fault for going to a vet that doesn't specialise in reptiles but in an emergency situation I had to make-do.. She asked about pretty much everything else though so she definately wasn't treating my dragons using guess-work (I would have walked out and taken my pets with me if that were the case)

The main reason I was going for broccoli and spinach is the vitamin/mineral quantities but now that you have said its not good for them I will definately go for an alternative (the avocado as well - luckily they were only getting this very rarely and in very small amounts as a treat)

With the new UV globe the main reason I went for it is that it was the best one I could get my hands on and the person I purchased it from said that he had used it with netted dragons in the past when they were having problems and they improved quite quickly when he used it (I know this sounds like he was just trying to make the sale, but the light set up he saw me looking at before telling me about this globe was going to cost me twice as much). Essentially what I was looking for when I purchased the globe was the distance the rays would reach, and something that could light the entire tank up. The light I was using was a bit restricted as far as the amount of the tank it actually lit up.

The vet didn't suggest a liquid calcium supplement, but I will definately be getting some tomorrow (I would have gotten it yesterday but the store had run out). I have been told about a liquid calcium concentrate that can be used for dragons (I know people who have had great success with it in the past), it is also used on puppies and kittens though so I am a little cautious as to the ingredients that may be in it - I will be aiming for a repltile specific one, or as an alternative do some thorough checking to make sure the concentrate is completely safe. As for getting calcium in the form of an injection, I wouldn't like to stress her too much - she's already on daily antibiotics, and appears to be doing quite well, so if possible I would like to keep things as calm for her as possible while making sure she gets better. In that respect I would say an oral liquid supplement is the way to go.

And thankyou for posting those links as well - they look like they will be very helpful. And thankyou again for giving me so much advice, I really do appreciate it as will my dragons.

 

[Bourbs]

Im not sure what type of x-rays they took.. They basically took them for their own curiosity and to help train some of their staff. I will look into it though and see if they will be willing to give me a copy (they didn't actually charge me for any of the x-rays because it was for training purposes so they would probably be within their rights to say no) If I can get a copy you guys will be the first to see them

 

[BT]

nec 10 is not crap, it was tested by an ultra voilet lighting company in aus and proved it was one of the best uv lights. I have used both and found that with the nec 10 my bearded dragon was more active and showed better colours than when I used a reptisun 10. The repti suns are way over priced compared nec 10. Not meaning to sound rude but have you ever used it?

 

[Kirby]

its not necessarily how far the rays reach, but the concetrate. at 12 inches away the zoo med, and megaray will be fine.. and practically 'optimum'

be carefull with a liquid calcium, although it will help. an overdose will be horrible. check with the vet (and as they do) get him/her to call a reptile vet (mine does this when in doubt) and check the dosage and treatment of MBD, even tho its only minimal, if untreated the 'bent or fractured bones will either get worse, or stay the same.

also with an MVB, you SHOULD be using the repcal calcium suppliment that DOESNT have added D3.. not many people know this..

P.S. that beautifuldragons site, if you click 'home' there are LOADS of other articles.. much better and more detailed than alot of caresheets and care books i have seen.. well worth the read..