BHP urate is green and has blood in it. Help!

[StellaDoore]

Hey guys.

Long story short, a mate went away and needed me to babysit his BHP. I've kept her separate from my other animals, never use the same equipment with her and my snakes, and F10 everything in an attempt to keep quarantine as good as possible.

She's been with me maybe a month now and has been fed on a diet of 200-250g rats every 2-3 weeks. The snake is about 2.2m long and weighs 2.5kg. Her tank has a hot end of high thirties (around 38C +).

I just checked up on her then and she has excreted a small amount of urate (maybe a tablespoon), which is white in colour but has a very thin ribbon of olive-green in it, and also has a small string of blood. I've heard of fatty liver disease in BHPs and am worried she has it. Guys, any idea what is wrong with this black headed?? What can I do about it?

I've noticed no other abnormalities. She is exploring her tank as usual, has a regular supply of fresh water that she usually drinks from, has no weird lumps/swelling/colour around her tail and cloaca.

Any help is greatly appreciated. I'm very worried about this and any possible effect it might have on my collection. After handling her just then I stripped, and put clothes in the wash before doing a nudie run to my room (where my animals are), that's how paranoid I am!!

Thanks everyone. If you need more details (or a photo, I took a photo of the poo =S) ask and I'll put them up.

 

[PythonLegs]

Has he mated recently? Shed?


Ok She. WhatEver. And no, I feel no desire to see the poop.

 

[Darlyn]

38 sounds a bit warm to me, in the time you have been baby sitting I doubt fatty liver disease would kick
in too quickly. I don't have heating for mine so can't give you exact temps. I'm sure someone will pop by with
some better info for you. Good luck

 

[StellaDoore]

Her last shed was in June, and she hasn't been mating.

38C is the hottest part at the hot end. Where her hide is (and where she spends most of her time) is sitting at the 32C mark at the hot end, with the cooler end in the mid twenties.

 

[Bluetongue1]

The ribbon of olive green is bile. Not a good sign in terms of liver function. I am uncertain as to why there should also be blood but again, that is clearly indicative that something is very wrong. Depending on how they are raised, rats around the 200 g mark and higher can contain excessive fat. It would not develop fatty liver disease in the time you have had it so at worst, you might be contributing. BHP in nature have a diet consisting of 90%+ reptiles i.e. very lean. So either limiting the size of the rats to 180 g or ensuring the larger rats are still lean is the way to go.

The bad news is that in all likelihood, the damage has already been done. Try altering the diet to keep it lean but if the snake continues to pass bile or blood I would refer it to a competent reptile vet on the outside chance they may be able to help.

It is a very unpleasant set of circumstances you have found yourself in and I really do feel for. Clearly, it is not of your doing.

At least there is a little humour in it. Following your comment on your nudie run, you made the statement that “If you need more details or a photo”. I stopped reading there and definitely decided that was a “Yes please” from me.

With sympathy,
Blue

 

[DerekRoddy]

It's breeding season for you guys right. I see this all the time with my BHP females during the season. It's a hormone reaction to chemical changes in the body. As long as she isn't peeing radiator fluid green in large amounts....she should be fine.

They will usually do this for a month or so during breeding.....even if they aren't with another BHP.

I'd pull those temps down a degree or 2 though.

D

 

[StellaDoore]

Derek, I hope to goodness you are right but I guess we'll see. She's due for another meal soon so I'll see what comes out after. Temps have been adjusted, will check again in the morning.

Blue, I thought it might be bile. Not what I wanted to hear =( I've emailed the local herp vet who is very competent, so hopefully I'll get a reply from him soon and he can give an indication of what's wrong and what I can do.
I hope it's not my fault though. She's been on these rats for several months before I had her, and I think I even went down a size coz my local reptile store didn't have any of the size she was accustomed. At the very least. I don't think I made things worse. I hope not =( Definitely dropping the food size though. Maybe two 150g rats? She's a big girl.

Lol, and my nudie run was technically a bra-and-undies run although I think my housemate still enjoyed it!

Checked up on her, she's being very nosy and active. The poor dear, I hope she's alright

 

[PythonLegs]

You won't get a definitive answer here, as it could be anything from a minor case of parasites to liver failure. Much as it bugs me how everyone always screams 'vet!' at the first sign of trouble, blood and green could be very serious.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

If the snake is behaving in an otherwise normal manner - basking, coiling normally and eating, I'm sure you have nothing to worry about. There are many variations in the colours of material that snakes excrete, and greenish is not unusual, and generally does not indicate the need for concern. Even small amounts of blood, unless consistently passed, and together with other abnormal behaviours, are not indicators of ill health. BHPs are notorious for passing urates almost daily, and mature female pythons are known to scent-mark with urates around their enclosures at breeding time.

Even if it is consistent, with loose, watery, greenish and very stinky stools (quite unlike the smell of "normal" snake poo), and some blood, it is probably an indicator of a protozoan parasite infection, which is usually easy to treat using Flagyl or similar medication.

I wouldn't panic in your situation - it sounds fairly normal to me. As I said, the indicators of serious ill health will be evident in other behaviours. Those suggesting fanciful theories of fatty liver disease, without any further information, are way ahead of themselves. Armchair diagnoses or serious illness are a worry at the best of times... Just keep an eye on it, but I'd be surprised if there is a real problem.

Jamie

 

[thomasssss]

agree with pythoninfinite , one of my womas passes a green sugary substance with his urate every few feeds not alot just a little not sure what causes it but hes fine in every other aspect , i think fatty liver disease shows itself as more of a rich tar green as it is described in doc rocs article on womas

 

[Irbz_27]

A bra and undies run is still something that a picture is in order for

 

[onthillside]

It's breeding season for you guys right. I see this all the time with my BHP females during the season. It's a hormone reaction to chemical changes in the body. As long as she isn't peeing radiator fluid green in large amounts....she should be fine.

They will usually do this for a month or so during breeding.....even if they aren't with another BHP.

I'd pull those temps down a degree or 2 though.

D

Agree with Derek.
Regards,
T

 

[Bluetongue1]

I had not considered breeding season and I was somewhat bewilder by the separate bile production and the white urates. Having taken on board the information provided by others, I will retract the statement that the damage has likely been done and suggest that a wait and see outlook is more appropriate in this case. My sincere apologies for jumping the gun.

This does not falsify the information about excessively fatty rats at around the 200 g and above. And I kind of suspected that you were probably down to only undies. Not to worry... I still have my hand up. LOL.

 

[StellaDoore]

The breeding thing is definitely an interesting possibility, one I never knew even existed.

Breathing a tentative sigh of relief at the moment, I hope she's okay. Is the hormonal thing only found in aspidites or do other pythons get it as well?

Blue, I'm not disregarding that 200g+ rats are fatty. Sent my friend home with two 150g rats so he can give her two smaller feeds and observe the poo that comes out. Not sure if this has any relevance, but the BHP is yet to poo out any brown? Since her last meal (about 3 weeks ago) she past two lots of urates (one normal, the other problematic, green and with a bit of blood) but no brown poo. Not sure if it's significant or if she's just taking her sweet time.

Still, feeling a bit better. And it doesn't sound like it is anything contagious. She's out of my house anyway, just in case

 

[Bluetongue1]

Stella,
Normal faeces is greenish or brown. This is due to the bile salts added during digestion. These salts are made by the liver from the haemoglobin of worn out red blood cells and consist of two main pigments - bilirubin and biliverdin. Biliverdin is green and bilirubin is yellow but breaks down to a brown colour. The bile salts are added to emulsify lipids (fats & oils) i.e. they physically breakup the large fat globules into tiny fat and protein droplets known as chylomicrons.

The passing of almost colourless stools – cream or pale fawn – is therefore indicative of a liver problem. Similarly, the passing of substantial quantities of bile independent of faecal wastes, are likewise an indicator of liver malfunctioning.

If the snake is passing faeces that lack colour that is a definite indicator of liver issues. The passing of bile is really dependent on the relative amount. If it is insufficient to colour the urates present then it is probably not a concern.

I hope that clarifies things a bit for you and your friend. Fingers crossed it is just a hormonal thing – something I am not au fait with.

Cheers,
Blue

 

[cement]

Agree with Derek and Jamie, (and blue, ) in this case my first thoughts are one the rats are probably to big to feed a blackhead, I feed mine nothing over 180gm and usually aim for around the 150gm or rabbits of 300-400gm. The rabbits are filling and lean.
Also my female who has bred with 100% egg/hatch rate no slugs ever, always scents her enclosure with drops and smears of blood streaked urine coming into mating season. She has been doing this since the age of two (before being fully sexually mature).
I would change the type of feed items (weight), and relax. And if you have a male.....

 

[StellaDoore]

Blue, that's really interesting about the way the liver works. Thoroughly enjoyed that explanation and thanks for clearing it up =)

Cement, so relieved that it could be just a mating thing. My friend has picked up the snake and I sent him away with some smaller (150g) rats and told him that if he wants to go bigger then he'll need to get onto small rabbits.
Ha ha, we don't have a male unfortunately, although some baby blackheaded pythons around would be awesome. They're probably my favourite baby snakes, so cute!
Thanks for your comments though, I'm feeling a lot better!