Breeding Snake Feed

[Marzzy]

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Well breeding Quail sure does take longer than rats and mice lol I might go borrow someones rooster next time my chooks start getting broody I think.

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after some deliberation I'll just use the soda stream method I think, nitrogen isn't as heavy as co2 and argon is expensive, not to mention industrial.

sodastream is food grade co2 which will be perfect, I knew there was a reason that was the gas of choice :facepalm:

Even though argon is an byproduct it's still expensive we use it at work, though the machine that uses it makes a lot of $$$ and is worth nearly $500,000. All gases seem to be expensive....

I find the link helpful as it gives a lot of information and the ANZCCART Standard of what you should be doing and how you do it.

 

[fourexes]

I know how expensive it is to because my business pretty much relies on it also and I pay the bills. Anything you rely on, people will think they can charge heaps for :|

What I'm worried about is, that food grade gas and industrial gases are treated differently. Think of crude oil, then you have unleaded, then premium. The difference between industrial oxygen and human grade oxygen is 1%. That one percent may not sound like much but it is.

I'm not really trying to be frugal, just humane & I would rather not use industrial gas until I know more about it. It could actually work out cheaper for me using argon and theoretically I think it would be better as it wouldn't attack the internal membranes like co2 does, it's heavier than air, it's inert & of course readily available. Dosing would be alot easier although you would still have to ramp up.

The main concern here really is safety for the snakes.

Beer brewers seem to have an endless debate about the food/industrial CO2 also.

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My home made wire top rat breeder, made using a storage tub and pieces of an old bird cage:


do most people steer clear of the shavings? thinking about switching to breeders choice but don't think it will absorb odour as well.

 

[saximus]

Shavings is the substrate of choice for everyone I know. Breeder's Choice absorbs the smell heaps better but it's too expensive to use long term in larger setups

 

[wokka]

Lucerne chaff is probably best for absorbing smell. I use hemp which absorbs moisture best of all. One of my keepers suggested it was clean enough to reuse after a couple of weeks compared to shavings after the same period.

 

[fourexes]

excellent thanks guys, I've been reading too many 'fancy rat' sites lol.

I've been mulling over the hemp.. (mind the pun) and haven't decided yet. wouldn't it just be similar to sugar cane mulch?

 

[wokka]

Sugar cane mulch is full of dust. We add it in winter as nesting material but its not ideal. Hemp is like the pith of a stem, sort of a cross between cork and cigarette butts. It also contains fine fibres which mice use to build nests.

 

[chase77]

I've been using superior shavings. They're kiln dried, screened and dust extracted. I haven't seen any of my rats sneezing. Change once a week, and not expensive. a bale lasts my 5 large rat tubs a month and they're $17 a bale.

 

[saximus]

Sugar cane mulch is full of dust. We add it in winter as nesting material but its not ideal.

I was going to buy a bale of that stuff but the dustiness deterred me a bit. Do you think it's bad for respiratory issues or you just don't like it?

 

[fourexes]

I use the superior shavings at the moment, since I've wire topped the lid they seem ok but before that some mornings would mist up the tub and be sneezing.
I use sugar cane mulch for my chooks and it is dusty, though it doesn't seem to worry them. good for mulch later on to.

I haven't heard a bad word about the superior shavings yet, though I don't know that they have enough exposure. Definitely cheap enough though. I've got guinea pigs cooking here to and they like it.

 

[wokka]

My decision is driven by absorbancy. Our biggest cost is labour so we try to only clean out once per litter. We do that by using larger tubs than most with only individual mothers. In litters grown out to weaning the shavings sometimes gets a little wet, Still relatively clean but damp. With the downturn in the building industry shaving supplies are harder to get and price is rising so we thought it prudent to develop a sustainable alternative. Its early days yet but Hemp seems an answer. We use about a truckload a month and so far supply is reliable.

 

[nervous]

i was using superior shavings, but at $17.95 per bag i got sick of paying that!!! so i looked around alot of produce places near me and found another place that sells dust extracted & screened shavings which are 'Sydney equestrian shavings' for $13.50 per bag... a much better price! and they also sell the VSF food for $6 cheaper.

 

[fourexes]

Update: I now have just under 20 mice & 14 rats. I think I'll cull the mice off and replace with more rats. Seem to produce better, smell less, mother better & are a more suitable size for my collection. Only downside is they eat more and take up more room but I can work around that by making some long range feeders & putting them outside. When I get it all sorted out I might try and track down some breeders and go with lab rats as the pet shop rodent quality leaves a lot to be desired. They have been great for an introduction though.

Mouse cages:


Also I've had quite a few quail eggs out of the one pair but still can't find a mate for my lone male. I've eaten all the eggs though so have to pull my finger out with this incubator so the snake can get fed :lol: I've tried them both on raw eggs and they didn't take, which I expected from the spotted but was a little disappointed in my water python. I've got a foam box I'll use with some heat cord and a stat, will post more pics when I finish that.

I thought it prudent to post this also: A sort of micro worm farm. Consisting of 4 of these containers for now.

And for those who say superworms can't be 'bred':

As the only time the quail will lay eggs is with a high protein diet, which is supplemented by meal/super worms. To the point that when they don't get them, they won't lay. Seed only is not enough.

Also a question for the rat experts out there: Can anyone tell me what causes this on a rats ear? almost looks like fly rot on a dog but not broken open & alot drier...

 

[mikey_mike]

Strange things just happened when I tried to quote - but responding to q re use of inert gas.

I use co2 as it is cheap and easily available, but it is not the most humane choice. I have read the RSPCA article but would like to point out that co2 is physiologically active and detectable. Co2 causes increased respiratory drive and widespread vasodilation which can cause pulmonary edema ie drowning in own tissue fluid. My observation had been that this is sometimes distressing.

Density of a gas is irrelevant - diffusion is way to rapid.

Phillip Nitschke imports N2 gas. If it's good enough for humans it's good enough for rats/ quails. If you can cheaply buy an inert gas it's a more humane choice.

This has all been discussed on the thread on soda streams

 

[fourexes]

Thanks very much for that mikey, I'm aware of the negatives of co2 however in the industry I work in, it's put a lot of people into a big sleep without pain though, I've been in situations where I've come close to. The only obvious difference between people and rodents is the weight of subject. When calculating per minute respiratory cycles I would imagine it would happen even quicker with smaller animals hence why so many people with little physiological knowledge can still perform the task with some degree of success.

The more I think about it the more I probably will use argon. I'll see how easy it is to replace the co2 cartridges here then make a decision. Like I said I know it will work but my main concern is snake safety. Though if it's inert, it's inert. I also have nitrogen here but I'm concerned about it's specific weight being lighter than air and creating pockets unless it's fully purged than you risk stress. From what I've read a mix of nitrogen,co2 and argon would be perfect but without a way to meter it (read: expensive) it's a bit like urinating into the wind.

 

[mikey_mike]

You won't get pockets of gas which persist for long enough to be relevant. Diffusion is much too rapid. I can't imagine what effect the small quantity of inert gases in a rodents lung could have on a snake, but if you were concerned you could just give the chest cavity a squeeze - CPR for rodents.

I'd be really interested to know how you get on with n2 or argon, as sometimes I find co2 distresses the animal. Not quite sure why sometimes it's peaceful and sometimes a struggle. Would love to get my hands on some carbon monoxide, but I think it's controlled as it's so lethal.

Good luck & try to keep us posted.

 

[fourexes]

you've given me inspiration again to give it a try mikey cheers. I will keep updating as I progress.