Cage Size Limiting Snake Size?

[Jungletrans]

I'm going to keep mine in lengths of 100mm pvc tubing . I think I can get 100's of them in a hall cupboard . They don't mind , they haven't said a thing .

 

[Snotty]

i'm with you hazordous, i dont understand the use of tubs when keeping snakes, except for keeping hatchies in so they feel safe, as for adult snakes of up to 8foot i cant understand it, yes if the tub is 100cmx75cm then that is of decent size for an average size snake, but in saying this i keep snakes because i love them, i love to watch them moving around climbing the branches and looking at their colours. why do people keep them in opaque tubs where you can not see them or enjoy looking at them, where they cant stretch out or climb branches, is it just so they can say how many snakes they have, i wouldnt want to live in a box the size of a toilet cubicle and i'm sure the snakes dont enjoy living in a small tub, i dont think that the arguement that it does no long term damage is a fair or valid one. nobody likes to see a puppy farm with dogs crammed in little shoe boxes pumping out puppies so why is it ok for some snake breeders????...........rant over let the tongue lashing from those that keep their reptiles like this begin.

You need to be careful generalising, not all pythons are arboreal for example. Most of the pythons kept in racks are Ball/Royals which actually do tend to do far better in a small opaque tub. It simulates the termite mounds and similar where they naturally live. I have never seen anyone anywhere keeping adult carpets in tubs, although no doubt it does happen. Retics and Burmese I admit is a bit more iffy, but then again I have pulled them out of street drains and similar which would be smaller than some tubs.

The thing to remember is not just that the anatomy is different but the physiology is entirely different. Comparing a puppy to a snake makes absolutely no sense at all.

As to the argument about no long term damage, well there have been people using rack systems for 40 years now in Europe and North America with no problems that I am aware of compared to any other housing. Husbandry is far more important. You might like enjoying viewing your animals, but it does not automatically mean they enjoy being viewed through a big open pane of glass.

Oh and no I don't have any racks at all.

 

[Snowman]

That's a bit stupid. Puppies need to run around. Your failing to see the anatomy of a snake is different.
The more I think about it the more I think tubs are fine. Though I don't see the point when I have room for viewing enclosures. If I was trying to line breed a species and had to house a lot of them I think tubs would be a suitable way to do it.

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You need to be careful generalising, not all pythons are arboreal for example. Most of the pythons kept in racks are Ball/Royals which actually do tend to do far better in a small opaque tub. It simulates the termite mounds and similar where they naturally live. I have never seen anyone anywhere keeping adult carpets in tubs, although no doubt it does happen. Retics and Burmese I admit is a bit more iffy, but then again I have pulled them out of street drains and similar which would be smaller than some tubs.

The thing to remember is not just that the anatomy is different but the physiology is entirely different. Comparing a puppy to a snake makes absolutely no sense at all.

As to the argument about no long term damage, well there have been people using rack systems for 40 years now in Europe and North America with no problems that I am aware of compared to any other housing. Husbandry is far more important. You might like enjoying viewing your animals, but it does not automatically mean they enjoy being viewed through a big open pane of glass.

Oh and no I don't have any racks at all.

spot on. People are thinking from a human perspective. What's to say enclosures are actually worse for snakes than tubs?

 

[buffcoat]

Snakes are very prone to becoming nervous when given open spaces. I have a royal in a 20 gal cage with the top covered. He spends 95% of his time in his hide. Trying to get him out is quite amusing. My boa is 5.5' long. She spends all her time in her humid hide (that's made out of a cake saver tupperware thing). You know, the 10" pan kind. She loves it in there. She does come out to cruise around and bask

Smaller spaces such as tubs and racks make them feel more secure. You can use the semi transparent tubs just fine.

I have some in tubs and some in vivs. All 4x2x2 or 2x2x18", except the dwarf retic. His is 6x2x2. So generally 1/2 the size of the snake long. So a tub of appropriate size is fine.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sleazy.P.Martini]

i'm with you hazordous, i dont understand the use of tubs when keeping snakes, except for keeping hatchies in so they feel safe, as for adult snakes of up to 8foot i cant understand it, yes if the tub is 100cmx75cm then that is of decent size for an average size snake, but in saying this i keep snakes because i love them, i love to watch them moving around climbing the branches and looking at their colours. why do people keep them in opaque tubs where you can not see them or enjoy looking at them, where they cant stretch out or climb branches, is it just so they can say how many snakes they have, i wouldnt want to live in a box the size of a toilet cubicle and i'm sure the snakes dont enjoy living in a small tub, i dont think that the arguement that it does no long term damage is a fair or valid one. nobody likes to see a puppy farm with dogs crammed in little shoe boxes pumping out puppies so why is it ok for some snake breeders????...........rant over let the tongue lashing from those that keep their reptiles like this begin.

Its not really about being able to say how many you have. Think about big breeders, without a giant warehouse the only option to house the snakes is racks. They don't do it to show off, they do it so people that like to look at their snakes have somewhere to buy them...

 

[Hazordous-Herps]

I just don't see how a confined space for some snakes is any good, I'm not worried about ball snakes, corn snakes and other smaller snakes. Its mainly about larger ones, can you see a snake that moves a lot more will be more muscular and healthy, and rack systems are just asking for mites and other parasites which can then infect the hole rack. Also if one snake gets sick, it is Likly the others in the rack being kept in the rack will to. Snowman if you believe that racks are fine and go out and put all your snakes in racks as it is great, that's fine just I'm going to keep snakes in a replica of there environment where they actually move. ​

 

[crocodile_dan]

I think many people anthropomorphize reptiles too much. The links to mammals is also irrelevant, even a comparison of cage size between lizard species and snakes could be deemed irrelevant.

I don't accept the above comment about racks and health issues at all. If I did have some form of health concern in my collection I would much rather prefer to deal with the issue with non-porous cage surfaces than cage after cage of fake rock walls and 'naturalistic' furnishings.

I have no issue with either tubs or large landscaped enclosures, but lets face it keeping any species captive no matter how accurately we replicate their environment we will always fall short on many aspects. Also just because an enclosure looks natural and aesthetically pleasing to our eye has no correlation to how the inhabitant perceives the same space via visual, tactile, olfactory or audible senses.

I also believe cage dimensions are useless and a more accurate measure of captive housing is the amount of occupiable space designed with species specific requirements in mind.

I use tubs and I also use enclosures.

 

[Snowman]

I just don't see how a confined space for some snakes is any good, I'm not worried about ball snakes, corn snakes and other smaller snakes. Its mainly about larger ones, can you see a snake that moves a lot more will be more muscular and healthy, and rack systems are just asking for mites and other parasites which can then infect the hole rack. Also if one snake gets sick, it is Likly the others in the rack being kept in the rack will to. Snowman if you believe that racks are fine and go out and put all your snakes in racks as it is great, that's fine just I'm going to keep snakes in a replica of there environment where they actually move. ​

Oh dear.... How long have you been keeping and breeding snakes? Thanks for your "informed opinion" however I think your ignorance of suggesting racks result in mites is an obvious observation that you don't know anything about snake husbandry. If you get mites in a melamine enclosure. Chances are the whole room needs to be roach bombed. Quarantine is what prevents mites entering a collection.
You're kidding yourself if you think a melamine box is a replica of their natural environment. Sure you can decorate an enclosure so a human looks at it and thinks wow. Those fake plants make it look like the bush. But the snakes don't see it that way. Unless you can set up a whole Eco system with live prey, natural sun and rain, then there is absolutely nothing replicated from their own environment.
I'm not about to use racks because I'm a selfish pet keeper and put my own desires to view my animals first. I'm pretty sure most snakes would prefer not to have a glass window where people come and disturb them all the time. As already has been stated tubs have been used for over 30-40 years with nothing bad eventuating. The only reason people get upset about tubs is because the think snakes are like puppies or even worse like humans. The lack of understanding of reptiles and their anatomy and needs indeed makes me feel sorry that these people are allowed to keep them as pets.

 

[Hazordous-Herps]

I give up, you guys might as well be saying that snakes shouldn't exist in the wild as every time snakes are out and about in the wild they are scared out of there minds and whenever another animal looks at them they die of fright. C'mon if you really think that racks are way better then big enclosures I'm sure you could contact Stein enclosures and tell them just how wrong they are, and that they should make little tubs instead of the amazing large enclosures they make. Snowman it is not selfish you keep tour snakes in large enclosures as with the right care nothing's gonna happen, all I'm saying is that I'm not a fan of tubs and I never will.

 

[BIGBANG]

This is just another one of those topics in the herp world where people just need to agree to dis agree as it goes nowhere someone that thinks tubs are fine will not convince someone that is against them that they are, and vica versa, I will never use tubs to keep my adult reptiles in, i don't look at them as humans or anything other than wild animals, and although I will never be able to replicate their environment I will try my best.

 

[Snowman]

This is just another one of those topics in the herp world where people just need to agree to dis agree as it goes nowhere someone that thinks tubs are fine will not convince someone that is against them that they are, and vica versa, I will never use tubs to keep my adult reptiles in, i don't look at them as humans or anything other than wild animals, and although I will never be able to replicate their environment I will try my best.

Put some photos up. I'd love to see your attempts to replicate their environment and how close you have got for the species you keep.

 

[Sleazy.P.Martini]

I give up, you guys might as well be saying that snakes shouldn't exist in the wild as every time snakes are out and about in the wild they are scared out of there minds and whenever another animal looks at them they die of fright. C'mon if you really think that racks are way better then big enclosures I'm sure you could contact Stein enclosures and tell them just how wrong they are, and that they should make little tubs instead of the amazing large enclosures they make. Snowman it is not selfish you keep tour snakes in large enclosures as with the right care nothing's gonna happen, all I'm saying is that I'm not a fan of tubs and I never will.

Mate I think you'll find stein make big beautiful enclosures more for keepers than reptiles. I don't reckon snakes care if their enclosure is made of nice stained wood that fits the scheme of your home. So that's not a real relevant argument. Also I reckon you find snakes are scared outside in the wild quite a bit, remember anything that flies or is bigger than them can be a potential predator

 

[Hazordous-Herps]

Mate I think you'll find stein make big beautiful enclosures more for keepers than reptiles. I don't reckon snakes care if their enclosure is made of nice stained wood that fits the scheme of your home. So that's not a real relevant argument. Also I reckon you find snakes are scared outside in the wild quite a bit, remember anything that flies or is bigger than them can be a potential predator

The wood has nothing to do with it, I was commenting about how big they are. So I believe your argument is irrelevant.

 

[Sleazy.P.Martini]

The wood has nothing to do with it, I was commenting about how big they are. So I believe your argument is irrelevant.

Mmmhmmm, not really. You see a lot of the enclosures people use are big enough and then some. Snakes don't need as much room as a lot of people think. And the part about snakes in the wild, irrelevant too?

 

[Snowman]

Mmmhmmm, not really. You see a lot of the enclosures people use are big enough and then some. Snakes don't need as much room as a lot of people think. And the part about snakes in the wild, irrelevant too?

I think you are wasting your time. It's obvious he doesn't know much about keeping snakes. He is deluded and cant get his head around that snakes don't share his same visual desires. I'm mean come on he thought racks promoted mite problems! Even showed his views of humanization (anthropomorphic) of how snakes feel by saying he wouldn't want to be in a small enclosure. Bahahaha
gotta expect it during school holidays

 

[notechistiger]

You are taking things far out of proportion. He never said tubs were superior to enclosures. He was however, disagreeing with your opinion that tubs are bad for snakes and their mental well being. You don't have to agree with it, but fact of the matter is, it doesn't hurt any snake in the slightest (with appropriate sized tubs, of course). There is nothing WRONG with keeping a snake in a tub. There is no comparison between this and factory farms or puppy farms and so forth. Snakes are very different to these animals. Of course, feel free to keep your snakes in beautiful enclosures, but just because you do this doesn't mean every other keeper should too.

 

[BIGBANG]

snowman you think that i'm gunna do that after the crap that has been talked in this thread, thats just asking to be nit picked untill the cows com home. i'm over this thread seems on this forum that when you have a different opinion to somebody else you get hammered. i dis like tubs, dont understand the need to use them ( unless of relevant size) and that is it, i like to give my snakes room to move as they do move around naturally not sit in the one place (except some species), i cant think of ever going out and finding snakes in the wild that move round and round in circles, if you follow a snake they will cover a fair distance.....yes yes i know their anatomy is different and all that stuff. this is my opinion doesnt make it right and doesnt make it wrong, but i dont think it needs to be hammered.

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2 snakes i bought the other day are 4 foot long and were kept in a tub that was 300Wx500Lx200H approx. they are arboreal snakes, i dont think that sort or cage is appropriate for them! these are the types of tub systems i have a problem with

 

[Sleazy.P.Martini]

snowman you think that i'm gunna do that after the crap that has been talked in this thread, thats just asking to be nit picked untill the cows com home. i'm over this thread seems on this forum that when you have a different opinion to somebody else you get hammered. i dis like tubs, dont understand the need to use them ( unless of relevant size) and that is it, i like to give my snakes room to move as they do move around naturally not sit in the one place (except some species), i cant think of ever going out and finding snakes in the wild that move round and round in circles, if you follow a snake they will cover a fair distance.....yes yes i know their anatomy is different and all that stuff. this is my opinion doesnt make it right and doesnt make it wrong, but i dont think it needs to be hammered.

As previously explained, the need comes from having large numbers of animals. Large breeders for example. Surely you couldn't expect large breeders, with hundreds of animals (hatchies not included) to provide large, realistic LOOKING enclosures for each individual animal?

 

[Snowman]

snowman you think that i'm gunna do that after the crap that has been talked in this thread, thats just asking to be nit picked untill the cows com home. i

Because the simple fact is you dont have anything that replicates their natural environment. No trees or grasses native to the area they are found. No substrate that is similar to where they are found etc.... Although you may try your best to replicate their natural environment and habitat you'd be just as close as if it were in a tub.
Snakes in tubs have room to move, they go around in circles as much as they do in an enclosure.
I'm still yet to hear an intelligent argument against tubs other than personal preference.

I mean come on do you really think you have a better understanding of snake husbandry and care than Brian Barczyk? Your previous posts prove that you have very little understanding. And that is fine.. But dont argue the point without facts.

 

[Trimeresurus]

snowman you think that i'm gunna do that after the crap that has been talked in this thread, thats just asking to be nit picked untill the cows com home. i'm over this thread seems on this forum that when you have a different opinion to somebody else you get hammered. i dis like tubs, dont understand the need to use them ( unless of relevant size) and that is it, i like to give my snakes room to move as they do move around naturally not sit in the one place (except some species), i cant think of ever going out and finding snakes in the wild that move round and round in circles, if you follow a snake they will cover a fair distance.....yes yes i know their anatomy is different and all that stuff. this is my opinion doesnt make it right and doesnt make it wrong, but i dont think it needs to be hammered.

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2 snakes i bought the other day are 4 foot long and were kept in a tub that was 300Wx500Lx200H approx. they are arboreal snakes, i dont think that sort or cage is appropriate for them! these are the types of tub systems i have a problem with

I think in this case it's not your opinion, but your ignorance that people are arguing against. And out of interest, what species were these 4 ft arboreal snakes?