Carbon Tax...What do you think???

[fugawi]

The general coffers, as all taxes do. The main bulk to help with labors massive debts.

All this research into renewable energy has been going on for over 50yrs. Everything from solar, wind, tidal, geothermic, cold fusion etc, we are already researching these things, the question is "How will paying the government billions of dollars change this?".

 

[wokka]

I was dissappointed in the recent splurge for solar power in nsw. I think it should only apply to systems with say 50% of Australian componantry rather than just importing all the hardware from overseas.We need incentive to develop renewable energy industries here for the long term. This will not only create jobs but also keep the profit here. We dont need another foreign owned mining industry which sends profits overseas at the expense of local Australian!

 

[fugawi]

Anyone manufacturing componentry for solar systems will just be hit directly or indirectly with the carbon tax anyway. A tax on industry will just force them offshore. A tax will not fix the problem, astronomical fines, tightening of laws and closing businesses that pollute will force them into cleaning up their act. An OFFSET tax will just offset the cost down to us, the consumer.

 

[The Devil]

We reduce our need for coal as a direct result of the tax but said coal will still be mined,exported and burned.Net benefit to the environment = zero

How RIGHT you are, sounds a bit like the mining and exporting of uranium but no way will we have a nuclear power stations.
Maybe, just maybe the people in charge haven't heard of the word hypocrite

What do you think the money will go towards?

Well the Federal Gov is still borrowing $100 million each and EVERY week to finance the current budget deficit and somehow they reckon that the budget will be balanced by June 2013.
The only way there is ANY chance of that happening is for a large portion of the Carbon Tax to go into general revenue and also don't forget the new mining tax.

Can anyone tell me what percentage of the atmosphere is made up of carbon dioxide and what the percentage was say 100 years ago????

 

[moosenoose]

I don't mind the government investing money in renewable energy even if it's not cost effective in the short term, however I'm not sure I would trust putting either the ALP or the coalition in charge of anything.

The state of the current political parties is more worrying than the carbon tax itself.

At least you're being realistic about how cost effective it'll be. But fence sitting is another thing.

I was watching Kevin11 tonight speaking on the news, and finally came to the realization that he was streaks ahead of the red peril! Kevin Rudd is undoubtably a smart guy, and I've got respect for him. Gillard and Brown on the other hand are destructive, moronic and self-centered. They can't possibly have the countries best interests at heart over their own self opinionated agendas! Get them out before we all go down the drain!

The general coffers, as all taxes do. The main bulk to help with labors massive debts.

All this research into renewable energy has been going on for over 50yrs. Everything from solar, wind, tidal, geothermic, cold fusion etc, we are already researching these things, the question is "How will paying the government billions of dollars change this?".

Good points!

The search into renewable energy has been happening for decades. We all know that's where we need to head. But governments being governments have realized there's a cash-cow out there, and an easy intimidated public.

The scenario: let's yell that the sky is falling and get people to empty out their wallets to save it! Pay more, feel better. No change can occur mOre than it already is. Dr Who doesn't exsist yet I'm afraid Julia!

 

[grimbeny]

I hope the carbon tax is passed on in full to consumers because, they are the big polluters.

 

[moosenoose]

I hope the carbon tax is passed on in full to consumers because, they are the big polluters.

:lol: Hahaha biggest and best troll comment of the thread!

The biggest problem is the population. Who's going to ultimately judge who's having kids, and who isn't. It's a catch 22. An aging population doesn't work. Unless of course we're willing to bring in slaves from 3rd world countries :lol: ..... Errrr.... Hang on, if we let Gillard and Brown go about their merry way perhaps we'll be about to outsource some of our kids to thd Arabs! Come on people, breed up!

 

[Renenet]

Can anyone tell me what percentage of the atmosphere is made up of carbon dioxide and what the percentage was say 100 years ago????

In 1900 it was about 300 parts per million (ppm). As of 2009 it's 386 ppm. Methane, which is a much more potent greenhouse gas, is also on the increase. See http://www.csiro.au/files/files/pvfo.pdf or simply Google it.

I accept the science of climate change. I'm frustrated at the inaction, the talkfests and the arguing. Nonetheless, I have questions about the carbon tax. I think that any effective program will need to include some kind of assistance for workers in affected industries. It also needs to be legally mandated that a certain percentage of the tax will be spent on actual greenhouse gas reduction. And for heaven's sake, don't let any technological developments that we achieve here go overseas. Support it, thereby creating jobs to replace the old ones.

To pick up on a few of the points raised in this thread: (1) I totally agree it's illogical to introduce a carbon tax but continue to mine coal and export it to the rest of the world. (2) The human population is, quite literally, a huge problem and there's no easy solution for that, at least nothing that's palatable. (3) The debate has been hijacked by politicians - never a good thing.

I also think that renewables can only take us so far. The technology just isn't good enough yet to give everyone on the planet clean energy. We can hope that one day it will be. In the meantime we need to use energy more efficiently. For example, I hate to think how much energy is wasted in the average Australian CBD after hours because lights and office appliances have been left on.

It's getting late so I'll stop here. I'll keep an eye on this thread, it's definitely interesting.

 

[ianinoz]

I'm an engineer with many years working to improve gas fired furnaces.

There's a lot of misinformation and scare mungering going on, mostly by the Libs and miners and the high intensity c producers (iron steel cement mgo aluminium al2o3 and power producers).
Most of it is just that - scare mungering.

There are lots of things these industries can do to reduce their c emissions, ie use recouperation to reduce the mass of air used to run their burners - very wasteful to use air at or near room temperature to provide o2 to burn their fuel (cold air has to heated up too this energy is wasted where if they use preheated combustion air or even go to injecting preheated pure o2 rather than air (mostly N2) big reductions in c emitted are easily had with the same heating effect for their given process).
CO2 can be recovered and liquified and sold as a byproduct or used to produce graphite which is valuable and used in many processes and products.
CO2 can also be converted to CO which is a fuel and is useful in many processes.

Sorry but from a engineering standpoint most of issue cited by those who are complaigning are really non-issues and a lot of them are exaggerated for the shock value (most of the community are not knowledgeable about this and are easily juped by the scaremungerers, and I'm yet here a single poly in the fed or any state gov indicate they have the foggiest clue about this issue, they all parrot their chose "experts" most of whom on the against this stde are not experts at all, just very vocal lobbyists).

Sure retro fitting process improvements like regen units, CO2 scrubbers, cryro CO2 plants, and making changes to these processes will cost some money, this is a one off cost though and the energy savings for these companies is going to large and on going for the life of these plants and will create even more jobs (GOOD IMO).

I could say a lot more but that will do for now.

 

[moosenoose]

Well I work with a whole bunch of engineers who concentrate on renewable and environmentally friendly power platforms, and it doesn't take away from the fact that this entire carbon tax issue is one great big money grab! It's an extra tax that will achieve nothing in the big picture of things. You might as well walk out to the footpath, grab all your loose change and toss it out on the street. Or better still mail it to the government. It'll help for more of their jet travel expenses.

Actually, I think the terminology is a "gaggle of engineers", or a "rambling of engineers".... or something :lol:

 

[Octane]

I believe that more should be done to preserve the environment but this proposed carbon tax is nothing more than a money grab.
There has been absolutely no indication how the tax will be used to further emissions reduction research and strategies. So it is just a tax on large scale carbon emitters that will just be passed on to the end consumer.

The politicians are pushing their propaganda that there will be negligable effect on middle and lower income Autralians as a result of the tax. However the same politicians are proposing to compensate or rebate for the effects of the tax. If the effect will be negligable why would we need rebates or tax offsets and realistically the money collected will not go into a special environment fund but general revenue.

I have an alternative a foreign profit reduction tax and a foreign owned land tax. More than 70% of the mines in Australia are foreign owned and ever increasing amounts of prime farm land are being bought up by foreign entities. The profits of this Australian production are being syphoned off overseas. Change the taxation system to keep the wealth in this country instead of subsidising offshore entities then we may have the funds to spend on environment saving solutions.

It should be Australian production for Australian benefit. Instead we are getting to the stage where it is foreign owned production in Australia where a small amount is returned to Australia in tax. That is reduced again with rebates and subsidies then the vast majority goes overseas as profit. How dumb are we as a country for letting it happen.

Regards
Octane

 

[BigWillieStyles]

I can't understand how the government still is pushing this when almost all Australia is saying clearly "NO".

Please play nicely.

Because its the right thing to do. Economists and Environmentalists agree that its a good thing for our economy and to lower emission. There has been numerous reports that show that the impact will be minor and it will increase growth in the renewables sector.

There was much more opposition to the GST from to libs yet they never backed down and brought it in.

Tougher laws on pollution is a better way, not a tax.

Not true. A cap on pollution would have a devastating effect on Australias energy use. The carbon tax makes renewables for energy companies a much better option. Currently coal is a far cheaper option. By making a tax on carbon emissions, the renewable sector looks more affordable and its likely energy companies will make the shift.

The media is playing it up more than its really is and I dont believe the polls are a good representation of the people. But the reality is that Australia needs a carbon tax.

 

[goaty777]

We do not need a carbon tax, what is required is an emmisions trading scheme. This is nothing more than an opportunity for redistribution of wealth (classic labour ideology). This is not good for Australia or Australian residents. Why will lower income people get more back in compensation than they pay and wealthier people get less? If they were serious about pricing carbon it would be uniform accross the board.For all those that dont believe businesses will move abroad, think again at $23 per tonne my business will be moving overseas as it will not be viable to manufacture here. I personally know of six other companies that are investigating alternative overseas manufacturing sites at present. What does this mean less jobs for Australians, less tax paid, etc, etc.Labour went to the last election with the promise there would be no carbon tax, why is it now doing it? This is to stay in power at any cost, it is a poor decision that will ultimately hurt the everyday Australian

 

[BigWillieStyles]

We do not need a carbon tax, what is required is an emmisions trading scheme. This is nothing more than an opportunity for redistribution of wealth (classic labour ideology). This is not good for Australia or Australian residents. Why will lower income people get more back in compensation than they pay and wealthier people get less? If they were serious about pricing carbon it would be uniform accross the board.For all those that dont believe businesses will move abroad, think again at $23 per tonne my business will be moving overseas as it will not be viable to manufacture here. I personally know of six other companies that are investigating alternative overseas manufacturing sites at present. What does this mean less jobs for Australians, less tax paid, etc, etc.Labour went to the last election with the promise there would be no carbon tax, why is it now doing it? This is to stay in power at any cost, it is a poor decision that will ultimately hurt the everyday Australian

Well if people voted for Labour, and they got in without the assistance of the Greens, then yes, there would be no carbon tax. Did you vote Labour?

It wont be long until most other countries will also have a carbon tax, so will moving overseas really be practical given the extra costs gst taxes, transportation, etc? There is already talk about making extra taxes on companies using offshore manurfacturing. Where are you planning on going offshore? Places like India, NZ, many parts of Europe already have a carbon tax in place. And china is already talking about bringing one in soon. By bringing in a carbon tax, it will also open doors to more renewable companies.

 

[goaty777]

Hogwash, this is a classic labour ideology. This is a redistribution of wealth! Why will lower income people get more in compenstaion than wealthier people? If they were serious they would bring in an emmisions trading scheme, which is a fairer way to implement something meaningfull.At $23 a tonne businesses will move overseas, they will be forced too. This government went to the last election on the back of there would be no carbon tax, what a backflip. Why ..... Because they want to stay in power and need the greens on board. The greens, what a joke talk about sending us backwards. This carbon tax is not good for australia, not good for business, not good for employment and definetely not good for australians

Well if people voted for Labour, and they got in without the assistance of the Greens, then yes, there would be no carbon tax. Did you vote Labour?It wont be long until most other countries will also have a carbon tax, so will moving overseas really be practical given the extra costs gst taxes, transportation, etc? There is already talk about making extra taxes on companies using offshore manurfacturing. Where are you planning on going offshore? Places like India, NZ, many parts of Europe already have a carbon tax in place. And china is already talking about bringing one in soon. By bringing in a carbon tax, it will also open doors to more renewable companies.

No i didnt vote labourOther European countries like Spain and Ireland? The ones that have watered it down and even thrown it out? By the way there not talking $23 per tonne but actually less than $5. they also dont have the mining revenue, employment spin offs we do. In regard to india chine etc, india currently have $1 per tonne. Yes makes australia very competitive doesnt it

 

[Ramsayi]

All this talk of businesses moving,going broke etc is nonsense.As if any costs associated with the carbon tax wont be passed onto consumers.

 

[ianinoz]

Stepping out of this discussion.

Too many people ranting and politicing rather than discussing, if I want a heated political argument I'll go the pub or to a more appropiate board.

 

[The Devil]

Not that many years ago there was a new religion called "the ozone layer". Remember about the hole in the ozone layer and things like skin cancer rates were going to go up 100 times ect.
Haven't heard anything about that for some years.

Maybe China has the right idea with the 1 child rule. We all breath out CO2 so if we limit the population we limit CO2 ect. Oh, I forgot that China is going to commission about 100 NEW COAL fired power stations and 20 nuclear in the next 8 years.

Australia is going to save the world with a carbon tax but guess who will be supplying these 120 new power stations.

Interestingly the USA has rejected a carbon tax saying it will kill business and do more harm than good. They are going to rely on putting money into research.
That's a bit like the USA has also rejected the fiber optic high speed broadband as having little value for the enormous cost.
They are going with high speed, 30mbs, wireless/mobile broadband.

 

[jack]

Not that many years ago there was a new religion called "the ozone layer". Remember about the hole in the ozone layer and things like skin cancer rates were going to go up 100 times ect.
Haven't heard anything about that for some years.

that issue was addressed by nations who limited the gases responsible and slowed the degradation of the ozone. the problem is still there.

 

[BigWillieStyles]

Interestingly the USA has rejected a carbon tax saying it will kill business and do more harm than good. They are going to rely on putting money into research.

USA is not a good model for Australia. Europe is the way to go. But do remember that California, Colorado, and Maryland have a carbon tax and expect more states to follow suite.