Certified reptiles?

[Jen]

Didn't read the whole thread, feeling a little lazy today. The idea of being able to accurately verify the breeder and exact information about my reptiles is very appealing. Microchipping dogs and cats is common place and there are advances in RFID technology all the time - we just need to wait for a tag small enough to be safe for hatchies. My ex boss was researching tags for mice which could be implanted at weaner stage, so lets hope it will be soon that such small tags are available. I also love the idea of a 'birth certificate' though snakes don't have fingerprints and I am thinking DNA sampling is just too expensive for the average backyard breeder - and probably for the business breeders on a large scale.

 

[mungus]

Not to many breeders can state 100% where their animals came from.
They are relying on the honesty of the original seller and so on.
So, the the certificate is only as good as it looks framed etc.

 

[junglepython2]

I agree, you can never stop crooks. But read again my opening post - it did stop one crook.

Yes, but as you said some people who buy from you simply throw the certificate in the bin, and many others must get misplaced. So not having a certificate doesn't mean they are necessarily crooks.

 

[AUSHERP]

there will be problems with any system, and as you said crooks will find a way to exploit it regardless of our efforts, I like the certificate system and think it is a useful resource when pairing for genetic traits, locales and so forth but you may have to leave it at that, just an optional resource that may or may not be correct/fraudulent.I guess when buying from a big player/ reputable breeder, the original buyer only knows for sure what they are buying, after that alot of people would take it as hearsay.

 

[saximus]

Can I just ask something. I understand the importance of pedigree for particular animals and I get that purists want to know the origins of their animals. However I don't really understand this stuff about "any inexperienced Tom Dick or Harry can breed". Where did the most famous/experienced breeders start? Why is it that, in the eyes of some people here, because I haven't been doing it for years I'm not good enough to have a go at it myself?
I want to do it because I love reptiles and I think it would be a great opportunity to learn more about my hobby but it seems a lot of people would have me not even attempt it because I haven't been doing it for decades

 

[AUSHERP]

Thats what I said before but was told the famous breeders were always famous breeders and didn't start anywhere....... make sense?.... I didn't think so either.

I see what Michael is trying to achieve, as he said a pedigree can be started at any time it doesn't have to go back to wild caught specimens, it is just a family tree if you will, a guide to show which snakes were interbred and which were from new lines. it isn't meant to show where the snakes ancestors parents were from it is just to show where your snake came from, in 20 years time then it will show the ancestral line, if people have been true to their word, and really guys, is there any reason to lie about lineage, if everyone could look past monetary values for a minute, we might be onto a really useful genetic record here!!!

 

[Red-Ink]

Can I just ask something. I understand the importance of pedigree for particular animals and I get that purists want to know the origins of their animals. However I don't really understand this stuff about "any inexperienced Tom Dick or Harry can breed". Where did the most famous/experienced breeders start? Why is it that, in the eyes of some people here, because I haven't been doing it for years I'm not good enough to have a go at it myself?
I want to do it because I love reptiles and I think it would be a great opportunity to learn more about my hobby but it seems a lot of people would have me not even attempt it because I haven't been doing it for decades

Their famous for a reason either through their contributions in helping with understanding of reptile husbandry as they were/are the first ones to do it. They made significant progress in breeding were most have failed or have had limited success. They have quality animals year in year out and put in the hard work for years even decades to achieve that. One of "them" just recently recieved an OAM for his contribution to conservation and reptile husbandry in regards to his pioneering work with taipans. I don't think that anyone is "not" allowed to do it, but in the same regard the noteriety/respect is earned as I'm pretty sure none of us are Paris Hilton fans, we won't make you famous for no reason.

 

[saximus]

I agree that the famous breeders deserve to be famous and like I said the purists will likely always look for specific breeders/lines. From what I have read Brian Barnett definitely deserved the OAM. However he wasn't born with his knowledge and so had to be a beginner at some point too. Someone who started yesterday may be a future medal winner too.
I dunno I guess it just annoys me when it's said the way some people on here have said it. As if nobody else is worthy or trying it themselves

 

[Red-Ink]

Stick to your guns sax.... mate put in the work and it will pay off one day. Don't let them bring you down....

Anyway I think I've derailed this enough back to the certificate discussion.

 

[saximus]

Yeah thanks Red-Ink.
Yeah sorry for hijacking Michael. Back to original discussion...

 

[waruikazi]

I agree that the famous breeders deserve to be famous and like I said the purists will likely always look for specific breeders/lines. From what I have read Brian Barnett definitely deserved the OAM. However he wasn't born with his knowledge and so had to be a beginner at some point too. Someone who started yesterday may be a future medal winner too.
I dunno I guess it just annoys me when it's said the way some people on here have said it. As if nobody else is worthy or trying it themselves

We're gettign way off topic, but my feelings on this topic are as follows. Many new keepers see breeding as graduating you from newb to accomplished status, which isn't the case. Alot of reptiles will breed in terrible conditions. Many people breed without concern for the welfare of their progeny, what are you going to do with them when, because it will happen, you can't move them on. There aren't that many people who are dead set against anyone having a crack but do it properly and do it for the right reasons.

 

[Waterrat]

AUSHERP (I know you meant well) but I have to make a correction; I am not trying to achieve anything. I started issuing certificates 6 years ago and that's my personal achievement. I put this topic up for debate because of the case I mentioned in my opening post, not to push my agenda or even to inspire. Red-Nut saw it differently, so I trust this clears up my standpoint.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

I am certianly not against a certificate or registery set up, but more pionting out some of the downsides & if they could be corrected somehow.

If I had two pair of the same species snake, Pair 1 & pair 2.
Pair 1 are certified & registered & microchiped, Pair 2 are not.(doesn't matter where they came from).

I breed Pair 2 what is to stop me microchiping & certifying these came from pair 1.
Lets face it it is human nature for some to play the system if they can.

I think unless you were going to the expense & trouble of DNA for your own reptutation, it would be too hard to control. But if there was a way I am all for it.
Buy from people you can trust, if you want a specfic line is probably still the best way.

Cheers
Ian.

 

[AUSHERP]

Well I guess it always comes down to money in the end, wherever money is involved, and the cost different for more prestigous lines, you have people pedigreeing fraudulently. Water Rat, by achieve I did not mean push your agenda, its hard to get your point across with only text and no waving of the arms, its no good IMO if you're the only bloke doing it.

 

[Waterrat]

its no good IMO if you're the only bloke doing it.

It's good for me and it's good for those who buy my snakes and appreciate the certification. It seems that at least some others think it's a good idea but I understand, if there is no unity, it's each for their own.

Ian, et al., I have DNA samples from ALL my breeders and I am happy to make it available to anyone in need to confirm any lineages. It is expensive but it can be done. BUT, you woild have to trust me that I send you the right samples ...... incredible, isn't it? Trust, trust and trust.

 

[Bryce]

Brilliant idea mate, well done! i may look at it later down the track as well.

Cheers

 

[AUSHERP]

You're right water rat, it does just come down to trust, i reckon the only reason to lie about lineage is money. Money-the downfall of trust.

 

[guzzo]

I think it is a very good idea.

 

[Bushman]

I reckon that your efforts to establish pedigreed pure Australian native GTP bloodlines is highly commendable Michael.
Now purists have bona-fide Aussie native greens to invest in. Keeping Australian native bloodlines pure for posterity.
The certificates are a great way to prove that you have genuine Iron Range stock. As a result, buyers can seek each other out to match up pure yet unrelated bloodlines.
There's at least one breeder of natives out there at the moment that is claiming to have Cermak line native stock but when pressed about it doesn't answer. This could be the same seller that you mention Michael. Anyway, they're misrepresenting their stock as yours, so buyers should beware and insist on seeing the original certificates that Michael issues with all purchases. Those investors that have reportedly thrown theirs in the bin (for god knows what reason!) will regret it down the track when asked to produce it to potential buyers.

 

[Moreliavridis]

I think its a great idea!