Dieing Hatchlings :(

[00Scales00]

Ok class, we're starting to understand the concept of exaporation/condensation.
Today we're going to talk about diffusion. (Sorry, but I don't have a pretty picture). Particles in a solution will naturally flow to a region of high concentration to one of low concentration (approaching an even distribution). When applied to your incubator, assume that the water suspended in air will behave in this way. Since the humidity in your tub is higher than the humidity in the room outside; every time you open the lid more water vapour will flow out of the container than into it.

The only way to increase the water level inside the container is adding water. Sorry.

I understand what you are saying. But that's assuming that the air outside is less humid than in the tub. In a climate like where I live and a room like a garage it can quite easily reach the same level of humidity. How does that come in to play?
It's not that water is coming from nowhere, I know that. I am trying to point out that it changes form. I understand that humidity is lost when opening the tub, that is obvious.. But at the same time the temperature change that happens when you open the tub and let more air in causes the vapor to change forms into liquid therefore building up more water in the bottom. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure it out.

 

[Darlyn]

Are you saying that the environment around your incubator is more humid than inside your incubator?

 

[Ramy]

I understand what you are saying. But that's assuming that the air outside is less humid than in the tub. In a climate like where I live and a room like a garage it can quite easily reach the same level of humidity. How does that come in to play?

If the humidity is at the same level inside as out, then you'll have zero net diffusion: nothing added, nothing lost. If it's warmer in the tub than outside it, some air might flow in to where the air pressure is lower/warmer (a tiny amount). Even if this happened, it would not account for 1cm of water being added to the water level. Maybe you just didn't account for the volume of the vermiculite, or the water that was already condensed on the lid of the tub dripping into the bottom? Maybe something shifted and whatever was keeping the eggs up dropped down by a few mm? I don't know, but it couldn't have been moisture in the air.

Whatever the cause, it was an accident... we aren't trying to blame you. But now you know that next time you'll err on the side of shallower water, or revert back to vermiculite if that's what you're comfortable with.

 

[Newhere]

Crystal, the air outside the tub will not hold more water than the air inside the tub, lets say your theory is right and you remove air from the tub that has 100% humidity, the air that enters the tub would have to be 101% humidity to increase the amout of water inside the tub.

It is just not possible and you are frustrating the hell out of everyone because you can't seem to wrap your head around it.

- - - Updated - - -

Was the vermiculite in the water or out of the water? If it was out of the water then my post from last night is the reason you have extra water in your tub.

If you use the same method next time just put the correct amout of water in your tub and then use a tiny bit of water from the bottom of the tub to wet the vermiculite, this will ensure the water volume in the tub never goes higher than the original water level.

 

[Feurety]

If you are sure your theory is correct and are not willing to learn what 20 people are trying to explain to you, maybe prove the the 20 people disagreeing with you are wrong by posting pictures of your incubator setup .. least they everyone can see whats going on and give you different ideas as to what has happened...

 

[00Scales00]

If the humidity is at the same level inside as out, then you'll have zero net diffusion: nothing added, nothing lost. If it's warmer in the tub than outside it, some air might flow in to where the air pressure is lower/warmer (a tiny amount). Even if this happened, it would not account for 1cm of water being added to the water level. Maybe you just didn't account for the volume of the vermiculite, or the water that was already condensed on the lid of the tub dripping into the bottom? Maybe something shifted and whatever was keeping the eggs up dropped down by a few mm? I don't know, but it couldn't have been moisture in the air.

Whatever the cause, it was an accident... we aren't trying to blame you. But now you know that next time you'll err on the side of shallower water, or revert back to vermiculite if that's what you're comfortable with.

What you say is correct Ramy. All I know is that the water was not there, then it was. I did not pour more water into the tub to fill it up to the level of the eggs, the water came from somewhere. My guess was the moisture in the air. Apparently that's not possible. The crate the eggs were sitting on was solid and not able to move so I don't know, Maybe something has been unaccounted for. And yes it is hard for people to comment when there's no pics of my setup, (I put it away when they hatched) So I will leave it at that. Thank you.

 

[wokka]

My observation is that many incubators are a bit tight for space and so smaller egg tubs are often used which means the eggs are too close to the water.Deeper egg tubs allow for greater seperation between water and eggs and the lid and eggs. My understanding is that condensation results from inconsistent temperatures in that hotter air can hold more water (vapor) than colder air so if air cools the surplus air condenses on surfaces or rains.
The old fellas on this site have had a lot longer on this earth to observe and make mistakes, so anyone with a bit of sense should learn from the experience and mistakes of others and avoid making all the mistakes again.Be thankful that the information is now available as opposed to the old days of trial, error and frustration!

 

[Newhere]

Ok she explained her setup to me in pm and it seems she has been given incorrect info on the over water method, I'm not an expert but I think she is right and didn't explain her setup properly.

The eggs were in a tub on an egg crate suspended above the vermiculite which was about 80% verm to 20% water. The tub was not fully sealed as it had a small hole for the temp probe. The tub was then suspended inside a cooler above two inches of heated water.

I think the air inside the cooler was more humid than the air inside the egg tub and the warmer more humid air entered the egg tub and condensed leaving more water in the tub than was originally added, and opening the tub would of done the same thing. Thats just what I think and I hope someone can provide a better explaination.

 

[Feurety]

see now that explains everything.

 

[cement]

Crysy, if you go back and read my first two posts before you started being a smartypants, you will find that I have answered your questions. I have also stated there that you have a dodgy incubator. Everything you have written since points to the fact that your incubator is set up wrong. Newhere is saying now that you have eggs and vermiculite in a tub INSIDE another tub which has water??? Is this right?
If so, then like I said before, after you started throwing insults at me, you don't understand incubation, and you certainly don't have a clue on the water method.
I originally answered to help you. You want to be insulting, thats fine with me.
Good luck.

 

[Newhere]

Yes cement they were in a tub on an egg crate above wet vermiculite inside a cooler/esky with heated water in the bottom of the esky.

I told her that it would probably work better with the eggs suspended above the heated water and the cooler sealed. I know thats not the most ideal setup but I think it would work better than inside another tub. I hope I didn't give out bad advice I'm no expert.

 

[Rogue5861]

Are we talking a foam box with water and a aquarium heater? Eggs were placed on vermiculite inside unsealed containers, thus humidity from the foam box dripped into egg tub.

If you wish to use the same incubator in future i would suggest putting lids on egg containers. The method you used isnt the "over water method", but a different incubator heating procedure.

"Over water method" can be done in a dry warm incubator (heat cord or other heating devices in fridge) using a SIM container or similar.


Rick

 

[00Scales00]

I did put lids on the egg containers.

 

[Rogue5861]

I did put lids on the egg containers.

Did they have holes in them and water was pooling on the lids and coming through the holes?


Rick

 

[00Scales00]

I put a small hole on the very top corner to run a probe through. That's all. No other holes.

 

[Rogue5861]

I put a small hole on the very top corner to run a probe through. That's all. No other holes.

Was the hole sealed up? I think this is where your extra water came in from, you could probably put the probe in through the side of the container or even having a small drain hole in the tub.

The aquarium heater setup causes a lot of condensation on the roof of incubator and it will drip down. If the water can get into your tubs from the top you can end up with too much water in the tub and drown the eggs.


Rick

 

[00Scales00]

It was sealed yes, although you never know, it could have had a tiny opening I didn't see. There are several things that were not quite right, that I wouldn't do again. There was lots of condensation. The humidity and the temperature was right and the eggs were a good shape (not caved in or swollen) the whole way through incubation. That is until the last few days before hatching, I noticed the water build up. (It was not there a couple of days before hand) it was very prominent, I would have noticed it. I have heard that in the later stages of incubation that this is common due to increase heart rate in the embryos causing more heat and higher temperature within the egg tub.
Not sure to what extent that is true but just putting it out there. Regardless, that is not the main issue I don't think.

- - - Updated - - -

I think what you are saying is the most likely cause. I did opt out to use the over water method, then, after watching demonstrations, listening to other people, reading articles etc.. A few things were thrown at me to consider.. Using the water as the heat source rather than a regular incubator to help with humidity. And adding substrate to the egg tub with the water to eliminate it splashing up onto the eggs if it's moved or knocked.. As apose to just having water. Sounded legit to me. So I guess I moved from one method to the other.
After experiencing the controversy of the different methods used and the so many experiences and opinions on the matter. I think I will opt for the one that I know best and have experience with.

 

[Rogue5861]

You can incubate eggs using vermiculite and water in a "dry" incubator, this is what most do if not using a SIM or like.

As you said the aquarium heater works great and keep temps very stable, just it has its downsides too.


Rick

 

[cement]

You give up too easily.
Where you had the water in the incubator, instead of the egg tub.
The water was under the egg tub.
The water was heated.
Hot air rises.
Rising hot air carries water
Water forms drops on the underside of surfaces that it can penetrate into and touches.
Hot air rises, rising hot air carries water.
Even if water was in egg tub instaed of incubator heavy condensation will build on lid of egg tub, hot air rises. rising hot air ccarries water
Hot air rising in egg tub bad
heat coming from top and sides above and around egg tub good
condensation no form on egg tub lid
hot air not rising in egg tub anymore
water not dripping on egg any more
opening egg tub 20 times a day if you like, make you happy with world.
water method now working
sometime snake still die
but problem now in snake not in method.

 

[00Scales00]

You can incubate eggs using vermiculite and water in a "dry" incubator, this is what most do if not using a SIM or like.

As you said the aquarium heater works great and keep temps very stable, just it has its downsides too.


Rick

Downsides noted lol. Overall I found it good. Had no problems during the process. Just at the very end.