ethics

[Oxyuranus microlepid]

first, let me ask everyone to be careful in this thread. i myself can become hotheaded on such subjects. infractions tend to follow close behind!

what do you guys say to ppl who ask you things like:

if you trully loved animals You wouldnt keep them inclosed!
how can you keep an animal in a cage?
why would you do that to an animal? etc

 

[chloethepython]

i think most animals are better cared for in captivity than in the wild,,they have a constant supply of food,they dont havr to get it themselves,they have shelter from the elements and predaters,and if they get sick we can fix them up.

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

A subject close to my heart oxy, hope this thread lasts more than a page.
When you say animals,you are talking about herps right?
Personally,seeing animals in cages,especially when they are climbing the walls, gives me a bit of a sad feeling.
As much as id love to see all animals free and untethered, its not really practical is it.
You can justify the keeping of animals if the animals that are being kept seem content i spose, or if the animals are being used in educating the masses or being studied,perhaps for the benifit of the particular species.
It is for this reason i only keep a small collection of animals.This way i get to interact with all the animals here personally.
Reptiles take to captivity fairly well,but all animals can be kept happily if their basic needs are met.

 

[xander]

People who make these statements probably live in estates that were once bushland that once had wildlife living there.Plus pigs are kept in appalling conditions yet I bet most eat bacon,and what about battery hens?

 

[GreenWillow]

Xander, this is the very reason I do not eat pig or chicken, and associated products.I can not condone an animal being kept in those conditions simply for my gastronomical pleasure.

 

[Tatelina]

Hooray for the vegetarians GreenWillow!
If anyone ever asks me that, I will ask them if they eat meat. Enough said IMO.
The amount of cruelty that happens to feed the masses of humans is disgusting.

 

[PhilK]

The pigs/chickens are not being kept there for your pleasure,and therefore you not eating them makes no difference. Pig/chicken farming will still happen.. That's not to put you down personally, I have nothing against people being vegos.

Back to the question: Yes, I believe keeping caged animals for our pleasure is wrong (same theory as Tat and GreenWillow) .. But since when do humans do what's best for anything but humans?

 

[xander]

humans are a selfish lot.

 

[Chimera]

A comment I relay to people who say this about keeping snakes in an enclosure is "In the wild a snake lives in a hollow log or rock crevice and will only leave that place for food and heat. In the open they feel exposed and uncomfortable. In captivity everything comes to them so their life is less stressful." Very simplistic but does the trick.

I know I've used this phrase here but don't you find that most (if not all) the most stupid things you hear about captive animal care start with "In the wild...". e.g. "don't you feed them live rats, in the wild they have to hunt, isn't it good for them"

 

[GreenWillow]

The pigs/chickens are not being kept there for your pleasure,and therefore you not eating them makes no difference. Pig/chicken farming will still happen.. That's not to put you down personally, I have nothing against people being vegos.

Back to the question: Yes, I believe keeping caged animals for our pleasure is wrong (same theory as Tat and GreenWillow) .. But since when do humans do what's best for anything but humans?

To thine own self be true.

I don't know who said this, but it is not a bad philosophy to live by. I am not trying to change the world or stop the battery farming of any group of animals. All I am doing is living my life with integrity to my own standards and ideals.

 

[herptrader]

Yeah but if you eat Sheep/Lamb or Kangaroo you can be fairly certain it lived a life in an uncaged environment until it became your dinner.

 

[PhilK]

And I respect that: I didn't mean to have a go at you or anything
I'm just sort of getting at the fact that if you're against pigs or whatever being bred for 'your satisfaction' where do you draw the line between holding a snake in the same box for it's whole life for your pleasure? We all know we aren't keepng them because they aren't safe in the wild - we're keeping them because we want to. That's what people do. Should a wedge-tail be kept in an aviary in a zoo? Hell no. Does it happen? Yes.

 

[GreenWillow]

Yeah but if you eat Sheep/Lamb or Kangaroo you can be fairly certain it lived a life in an uncaged environment until it became your dinner.

I eat kangaroo.

 

[cement]

I have lived in the forest on my 25 acres at the foot of Mt Warning and had wildlife coming out my ears. Especially since all my neighbours and myself had very small clearings to live in and we were backed by Mt Warning Nat Park. I have never seen such huge trees as some that we could find.To get to the point, my place was alive. But i have had koalas go down with ticks, only to be finished off by BIG goannas while still half alive etc etc. Natures way. I however do not mind people keeping animals, because as you say they dont suffer half the harshness of living wild.No drought, no famine and when their needs are met, as long as they dont get frightened, they are pretty amenable. Not only to humans but sometimes even to species they would usually eat if hungry. In my experience the people who say that usually don't know animals.

 

[zobo]

I used to get this a lot with birds I kept and tree-hugging hippies!
My answer is that none of these animals would be alive anyway if we didn't keep them as they are captive-bred and get looked after better than in the wild.
jas

 

[PhilK]

Picture your life in a box. You get to go outside every so often, and whenever you're hungry someone gives you food. They clean your big box when it gets dirty and the give you a place to sleep and hange your water.

Nothing else happens in your WHOLE life.

I think that 'harshness' is part of life. Same as if we never had a conflict or problem in our lives, it'd be a life have lived..

 

[GreenWillow]

And I respect that: I didn't mean to have a go at you or anything
I'm just sort of getting at the fact that if you're against pigs or whatever being bred for 'your satisfaction' where do you draw the line between holding a snake in the same box for it's whole life for your pleasure? We all know we aren't keepng them because they aren't safe in the wild - we're keeping them because we want to. That's what people do. Should a wedge-tail be kept in an aviary in a zoo? Hell no. Does it happen? Yes.

I didn't think you were. These sort of discussions need to be conducted carefully incase someone takes offence or feels they are being attacked, particularly the more emotive the issue becomes. But i didn't think you were having a go at me. You pose some interesting questions which bring up some greyish sort of areas for me regarding my pleasure and enjoyment v's doing what I feel is the right thing by life, wherever it appears.

I like keeping snakes. Are they as content with me as they would be anywhere else? Probably not. Can I justify myself, though, by claiming that they have all their physical needs met, plus some others which occur further up Maslow's heirachy of needs? Mmmm, yes.

I have the same issues with critters as they become smaller and creepier. Could I squash a cat, if i didn't like it? No. A rat? No. A mouse? No. A mouse-sized spider? Probably. A small spider? Yes. A tiny bug? Yes. Where does life lose it's "sacredness" for me, and what criteria does it require for me to see it as valuble or not valuble?

Very tricky questions for me!

 

[PhilK]

Willow, I think everyone is like tht. In regards to "theyre happy with their needs met" - read the post of mine just before this one of yours

 

[GreenWillow]

Yes, I see what you are saying. It is cowardly of me, I know, but I find it best to not think too much about some issues as there are too many facets to it, too many unknowns, and no way of knowing just how much I am putting my emotions, expectations and values onto the issue.

 

[cris]

I think its ok to keep stuff if the animal has quality of life, IMO it make no differance if its going to be food or a pet.

A snake in a good setup has what it wants - heat, food, security and in many cases are able to breed.