Force feeding hatchlings

[ronhalling]

Hi guys and gals, in the advent the eggs my girl has got are not parthenogenetic i am thinking of gettong another coastal carpet hatchling but am having serious doubts about the breeder we got our girl from as a wriggler, it took quite a while to get her to take pinkies for herself as the breeder had force fed all his hatchlings with pinkys soaked in a vitamin liquid which he forced down their throats with a pencil, i do not know whether this is common practice but i personally feel it is a bit barbaric.
So what do you all think about that ???? and if he is doing the wrong thing can someone steer me in the right direction to a breeder of good repute in the Port Macquarie NSW area so i can visual the hatchlings first, lol i picked the 1 i have 5 years ago by putting my hand in the enclosure with all the others and she was the only 1 that did not try and have a go at me, in fact she wrapped herself around my fingers and was quite content to stay there.

Any input gladly recieved, I am not a herpatologist nor do i proffess to know anything about reptiles, i just love snakes, any and all including the hotties and promised myself that when i retired and had the time to look after a snake the way it deserved to be looked after i would get 1, it turned out to be the best thing i ever did, after 5 years she is almost 1 of the family, she is very tactile and loves to be handled, in fact when handling her if you do not stroke her head as much as she wants she will bump you untill you do, anyway i have let this get away on me, i would like some opinions thank you in advance

Ron

 

[longqi]

You used the perfect method to choose your first snake


There has a been a few discussions about this recently
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/decide-enough-enough-174288/page/4
In most cases force feeding is not required
If it is required it begs the question as to why
Is it nature just saying these are not genetically strong enough to survive and may weaken my gene pool??
Is it just bad luck and those hatchies eventually turn into prize winning specimens?
Is it inheritable??

At this point in time I believe there are no definitive answers yet

 

[ronhalling]

(Is it nature just saying these are not genetically strong enough to survive and may weaken my gene pool??)

In answer to this 1 the breeder said he does it with all his hatchlings to increase their surviveability, but if their genetic makeup is weak does not force feeding to make them survive only weaken the gene pool in the end.

 

[Shotta]

heya there sorry dont know much about the force feeding but i may know some breeders also reptile club is at the lionsclub 1st friday of everymonth a few people gather there might be some breeders there too

 

[CaptainRatbag]

It depends how old the hatchie is? Hatchies receive alot of nutrician in the egg and can survive without eating for several months (up to a year) so a hatchie can get away from its siblings and find a home (in the wild) without dieing of starvation in the meantime, so maybe the hatchie simply doesnt need to eat yet?

Breeders like to see thier hatchies are eating before sale and will often assist feed them after a shortish time, rather than wait for them to eat when they feel like it.... otherwise they would have too many hatchies staying around for too long.

How old is the hatchie? Does it look healthy/active? If it is only a month old and looks fine, I would suggest keeping an eye on its general health and condition and offer it food every week or so.... and concider assisting if it goes on too long or its condition deteriorates....
This is just my opinion from what I have picked up and heard/learned....

 

[caliherp]

It depends how old the hatchie is? Hatchies receive alot of nutrician in the egg and can survive without eating for several months (up to a year) so a hatchie can get away from its siblings and find a home (in the wild) without dieing of starvation in the meantime, so maybe the hatchie simply doesnt need to eat yet?

I have a problem with this statement. Snakes yolk lasts them 7-10 days. After a month of not feeding I get really worried. By two months I would have tried scenting. I really hate force feeding. It should be a last resort. And shoveing a pink down a snakes throat with a pencil? Thankfully I have only had to force feed a couple snakes. I gingerly push the pink just past it's front shoulders and the snake usually takes care of the rest. After two to three force feeding they usually eat on there own.

 

[notechistiger]

i do not know whether this is common practice but i personally feel it is a bit barbaric
Ron

It's not. Force feeding hatchlings is a part of breeding. I wouldn't want to do it with a pencil though! Far more likely for the pinkie to pop (literally) and make a lovely mess. Quite yuck. Caliherp, what you're doing there is assist feeding. Force feeding is when they do their best to spit it back out, so they mouse needs to be pushed all the way down. It's easiest I've found to just get the pink further than their jaws and push it down gently from the outside. They tend to stop trying to spit it out once it reaches their stomach.

Sometimes some snakes are quite stupid and it takes them a long time to understand rodent = food, and it's our job in the meantime to make sure they don't die.

The only problem I have with the breeder you had, ronhalling (by the sound of it) is that he gave you a snake that wasn't feeding by itself.

 

[caliherp]

Notechistiger your rite. That technique has worked for me well. Granted they usually spit it out once or twice. I just can bring myself to shove a rodent down a snakes throat when I've had success "assist feeding". I just feel that it's to easy to injure a snake that way. If they take it with limited shoveing then great, if not well ill have to cross that bridge when it comes(knocks on wood).

 

[longqi]

It's not. Force feeding hatchlings is a part of breeding. I wouldn't want to do it with a pencil though! Far more likely for the pinkie to pop (literally) and make a lovely mess. Quite yuck. Caliherp, what you're doing there is assist feeding. Force feeding is when they do their best to spit it back out, so they mouse needs to be pushed all the way down. It's easiest I've found to just get the pink further than their jaws and push it down gently from the outside. They tend to stop trying to spit it out once it reaches their stomach.

Sometimes some snakes are quite stupid and it takes them a long time to understand rodent = food, and it's our job in the meantime to make sure they don't die.

The only problem I have with the breeder you had, ronhalling (by the sound of it) is that he gave you a snake that wasn't feeding by itself.

Maybe it could be a part of breeding
I have bred a few snakes
Very very seldom ever force fed
Very very seldom needed to

That begs the question as to why some breeders appear to need to force feed more than others?
Could one possible answer be that "With line breeding etc etc we have weakened the gene pool and because of this
we are breeding weaker animals"

Maybe read this thread, it was a pretty good discussion

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/decide-enough-enough-174288/page/4

 

[caliherp]

Maybe it could be a part of breeding
I have bred a few snakes
Very very seldom ever force fed
Very very seldom needed to

That begs the question as to why some breeders appear to need to force feed more than others?
Could one possible answer be that "With line breeding etc etc we have weakened the gene pool and because of this
we are breeding weaker animals"

Line breeding can be a problem. For example there are some well know lines of GTP's here in America that are known to have problem feeders, there are also lines that have no problems so on and so forth. One of the ways we are trying to resolve this is by outcrossing not only to deepen the gene pool but they create some awesome designers. Here's some food for thought, do problem feeders produce more problem feeders then they do good feeders?

 

[longqi]

Line breeding can be a problem. For example there are some well know lines of GTP's here in America that are known to have problem feeders, there are also lines that have no problems so on and so forth. One of the ways we are trying to resolve this is by outcrossing not only to deepen the gene pool but they create some awesome designers. Here's some food for thought, do problem feeders produce more problem feeders then they do good feeders?

Non feeding GTPs are usually when Northern and Southern species are mixed
Not separated yet
But very soon will be

I dont think anyone has studied your question in depth
It would be a long term study and hobbyists may not like the answer???

 

[caliherp]

Non feeding GTPs are usually when Northern and Southern species are mixed
Not separated yet
But very soon will be

I dont think anyone has studied your question in depth
It would be a long term study and hobbyists may not like the answer???

Do you mean they are going to get reclassified? New subspecies? I agree, there would need to be a huge sample size, and it would take years. I'm with you I have an idea about what may arise from that study. I sure as hell do not want to be anywhere near that can of worms when it's opened.

 

[cement]

I have assist and force fed bhp, but have found that with the carpets there isn't a need to. The longest I have had one go without feeding is 4 months. They eventually give in to their hunger. If they dont feed and die well, bad luck. But I have never had one die from not feeding. The slow to go ones, can all of a sudden get the picture and soon catch up.
I like reptiles that eat.

 

[longqi]

Do you mean they are going to get reclassified? New subspecies? I agree, there would need to be a huge sample size, and it would take years. I'm with you I have an idea about what may arise from that study. I sure as hell do not want to be anywhere near that can of worms when it's opened.

With GTPs they will end up as definitely 2 but possibly 3 subspecies
North including all northern islands
South including Australia and southern islands
And possibly East

 

[reb01]

If given the correct requirements etc heating and a cool spot etc then eventually they should start eating by themselfs..By the sound of this the breeder sold hatchies that werent eating..Ive also assist fed a young BHP for a ferw weeks but after that he eat without fail

 

[caliherp]

With GTPs they will end up as definitely 2 but possibly 3 subspecies
North including all northern islands
South including Australia and southern islands
And possibly East

I'd be really surprised if it were only two. I think Aussies will be there own subspecies. They look so much different then other GTP's. has all the work just began or is it coming to to a head? Maybe we should start a new thread, I don't want to get off topic.

 

[longqi]

Cape Yorks are very close to Meraukes in looks
So grouped into Southern
Very near to being finalised I think