GUilty till proven innocent...

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slim6y

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These new anti-terrorism laws aren't actually as new as we considered. They were heavily enforced in UK (typically England) during tensions between England and the IRA.

If you've ever seen the movie "In the Name of the Father" with Daniel Day Lewis it follows the story of an Irishman trying to make a go of it in England. But unfortunately a bomb went off in Guilford and someone dobbed them in. Even though, so the movie depicts, they had nothing to do with it.

It lead to the arrest of the Guilford Four and they were guilty and jailed under the UK's anti-terrorism laws.

Even when the ACTUAL bomber made himself known, the guilford four were stiull behind bars.

Including family members.

I can't help but see the similarity between the most recent failed car bomb attempts in Scotland and the Gold Coast doctors arrested in relation with this incident.

Now, there's always two sides to the story. But how many people believe these men were guilty before any evidence is found?

Sounds almost similar to trying to find nukes or chemical weapons in Iraq!

"THE federal police has not yet gathered evidence to charge detained Gold Coast doctor Mohamed Haneef, as the clock winds down on his questioning time.

Dr Haneef has told the Australian Federal Police (AFP) about his family ties and telephone contact with accused UK suicide bomber Kafeel Ahmed, his second cousin with whom he shared a house in Liverpool for up to two years, The Australian newspaper reports.

However, despite executing several search search warrants, federal agents have been unable to find any incriminating evidence with which to bring charges."

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22066929-952,00.html

Now - There's no way i support terrorism, but a fair and equitable system is something I fully support.

I seriously am not sure about this case. But I just see some similarities to the Guilford Four and hope mistakes like that don't happen ever again.

I worry just cycling down the street with my back pack on - afterall, i do look like a terrorist (a kiwi bomber looking to radicalise Australia as part of NZ - but we seem to be doing a fine job of that without much of my help). Just even the slightest suspicion could put me in jail for 72 hours or something like that.

The chances are this won't happen of course, but it's possible that's the whole point.

These laws are set up to protect us from terrorists and also to make an exhibition of possible terrorists to put them off this... But... Recent studies of course have shown that there's more radical 'possibilities' than what we care to think about.

Should we arrest them all too?

I'm out of time, i was really just bored and having my 30 second (turned 15 minute) rant... Up to you what you do with it - because to all i care the above is totally 100% wrong!
 
OK, now as a preamble, I need to stress that I agree with you as first and foremost I'm a firm believer in due process. However, I like sparking discussion.

In the case of the doctors, the main reason they have been giving for them being held is that they are waiting for people to question them. Essentially this is not a matter for the AFP to get involved directly with, as it is a criminal investigation that involves police within the United Kingdom. They have been waiting for for someone from there to come over to do the questioning- why it hasn't happened is beyond me.

The biggest case that is used to justify the 'sedition laws' as they are called, is that to be able to pre-emptively detain someone, they must obtain the approval of a (I think supreme court, or maybe high court, can't remember) judge, who can give out an approval of up to 48 hours' detention. After that time, an extension must be granted, for detention of up to a week. The assumption is not that they are guilty, but rather that they have information about a planned crime that needs to be known.
 
you miss the most important pieces of evidence!
firstly his name is Mohamed,
secondly his skin is a funny colour
thirdly, he was leaving an uninvolved country, for another univolved country with a one way ticket!

seriously..... this is john howards australia we live in... thats all the evidence we need!
 
As this is a free country, if you don't like it you can leave.
I would rather someone be held than them blowing something up. If they are innocent I'm pretty sure they will be compensated for wrongful imprisonment.
 
Both your replies are flawless!

So we wait for a person from the UK to question our GC doctor.

Seriously though, if they were to arrest GC doctors who were of middle eastern decent, the hospital would shut down! There'd be no doctors in there to run it!

But i digress, that's a totally different topic.

Anyhow - I almost hope this guy has NOTHING to do with the bombing and he sues the government for millions of dollars in lost revenue and slander about his name etc and then goes and funds a terrorist cell (haha - the last part isn't a hope, but a distinct possiblity).

Also watch Catch A Fire about a South African coloured man who is also just trying to make a living when he gets what's coming to him because of his colour - and a seemingly good person ends up training to be a terrorist because of his treatment. Also based on a true story.
 
As this is a free country, if you don't like it you can leave.
I would rather someone be held than them blowing something up. If they are innocent I'm pretty sure they will be compensated for wrongful imprisonment.

A free country? Is it? Are you sure you understand the word freedom? sn't it illegal in this country not to vote? Doesn't seem very free to me :p

Blowing something up? This guy isn't even a suspect - he's a second cousin of a guy that may (or may not) have attempted to do some nasty damage in another country!

He, just as you eloquently stated, is guilty before proven innocent - that is not fair! And I doubt he will be compensated without a fight!
 
ah...
according to the law that enables him to be held potentially indefinately without charge, no compensation is needed. not so much as a sorry.

and seriously, what is there to defend if we sacrifice "freedom" for freedoms sake?
its like giving away your wallet to stop yourself being mugged.

those who sacrifice liberty for freedom, deserve neither
 
you miss the most important pieces of evidence!
firstly his name is Mohamed,
secondly his skin is a funny colour
thirdly, he was leaving an uninvolved country, for another univolved country with a one way ticket!

seriously..... this is john howards australia we live in... thats all the evidence we need!

Are you really serious????? what a load of rubbish anytime anything happens to people nowadays they all cry racism. (even if they are guilty).
This is simply a matter of trying to sift through all the 20,000+ pages of info.
Tell me this, how would you like it if this guy was released and went and blew up a major airport (like his associates tried to do) and killed off your whole family? All you civil libertarians would then be whinging WHY was he not kept in jail? who let him out? who's neck is on the chopping block now?
The police etc are trying to protect YOU and this guy associates with known crims who carried out an attack and he tried to flee the country, what did you expect them to do?

Its funny you all want to live in a safe society but lets see who all the whinges are when an attack happens on our soil. My bet is the same people will be saying WHY didn't the police do something about it before it happened.
jas
 
Are you really serious????? what a load of rubbish anytime anything happens to people nowadays they all cry racism. (even if they are guilty).
This is simply a matter of trying to sift through all the 20,000+ pages of info.
Tell me this, how would you like it if this guy was released and went and blew up a major airport (like his associates tried to do) and killed off your whole family? All you civil libertarians would then be whinging WHY was he not kept in jail? who let him out? who's neck is on the chopping block now?
The police etc are trying to protect YOU and this guy associates with known crims who carried out an attack and he tried to flee the country, what did you expect them to do?

Its funny you all want to live in a safe society but lets see who all the whinges are when an attack happens on our soil. My bet is the same people will be saying WHY didn't the police do something about it before it happened.
jas

I'm wondering if you're joking now...

IF (and it's a BIG IF) this guy was released and did damage somehow, then I agree, we did the right thing. But his life is now RUINED and I would say he doesn't stand a chance in this country. Racism against middle easterners has juts got worse and this guy isn't even GUILTY (yet).

So no - I DON'T AGREE!

But - on the same time - I actually think if media wasn't informed, his name was 100% supressed, his identity and location were kept secret - and he wasn't actually jailed - but more kept under house arrest (or hotel arrest until proven guilty) then I think we have something.

But the whole blimmin world knows who he is, pictures, names, family - everything. This guy is known only by association. How is that a safe and fair just system?

Instead we're breeding racism and propagandering terroism to some extent. Well done to this society, keep it up big boys...

My last thread involving any form of the word racism was closed, so please keep it free of racist comments in here tho.

I really worry ofr a country that has so much power that we can mistreat humans to such an extent then toss them out on the street if they're innocent without as much as a sorry.

Go watch In the Name of the Father and Catch a Fire and then re-comment on it - it's a very similar circumstance whether this man is guilty or not!


PS - I'm not whinging - I leave that for others, I'm just restating what I know and what I believe - and I think that media needs to be kept out of the loop so this guy, if innocent, has a chance of a real life again. If guilty, then sure, we all have a right ot know that we were treated by a GC Doctor who is a 'known' terrorist!
 
The only way that someone would get peeved off and attack our country would be because Howard is in bed with Bush and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens in Iraq, last time I checked (a few months ago) there were 600, 000 INNOCENTS killed by the Western armies..

And you wonder why the terrorists keep popping up? western governments create them by trying to control their countries.. the more Iraqi blood that our 'protecters' spill the more they get peeved and want get back at us..
 
well who are all the idiots who kept voting Howard over the last 10 years? NOT ME and that is how we have the ultimate power VOTE him out then.
jas
 
I agree Jason, people seem to want to have their cake and eat it. They want to live in a nice comfortable country but don't want the inconvenience of terrorists on the doorstep.
Everyone has rights under the law but in this time of fanatics and terrorists certain boundaries need to be extended. This doctor was leaving the country on a one way ticket without a word to his employers, anyone can see it is very suspicious.
Should we let him go and allow him to leave the country and then find out we had the right man ?
The Police Officer from the UK arrived days ago but as has been said there is an absolute mountain of files to go through.
 
Is APS really that far out of reptile discussions that we have to keep discussing politics?

Simone.
 
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you miss the most important pieces of evidence!
firstly his name is Mohamed,
secondly his skin is a funny colour
thirdly, he was leaving an uninvolved country, for another univolved country with a one way ticket!

seriously..... this is john howards australia we live in... thats all the evidence we need!

I also think this is a pretty silly way of looking at it. I think you will find there is a reason they held this man and not another Indian person. There are obvious links of concern, and in cases of a very serious nature like this one I believe it is better to be safe than sorry!!
ALSO People who suggest this is because of race or colour of skin are being very racist!!! If a white person arrests a black person, is this racist?? If you say it is you would be racist!!!
 
Are you really serious????? what a load of rubbish anytime anything happens to people nowadays they all cry racism. (even if they are guilty).
This is simply a matter of trying to sift through all the 20,000+ pages of info.
Tell me this, how would you like it if this guy was released and went and blew up a major airport (like his associates tried to do) and killed off your whole family? All you civil libertarians would then be whinging WHY was he not kept in jail? who let him out? who's neck is on the chopping block now?
The police etc are trying to protect YOU and this guy associates with known crims who carried out an attack and he tried to flee the country, what did you expect them to do?

Its funny you all want to live in a safe society but lets see who all the whinges are when an attack happens on our soil. My bet is the same people will be saying WHY didn't the police do something about it before it happened.
jas

I agree, Civil libartatians are a Joke!!! I recall a while ago we had some drug raids in some night clubs, I cant remember how many people got busted for possesion, but it was in the 100s. The civil libs came out and said to the police..."why dont you go and solve crime instead of picking on teens just out to have some fun".
I was so annoyed with this comment, who are civil libs sticking up for crims or law abiding citizens??? They are a JOKE
 
Is APS really that far out of reptile discussions that we have to keep discussing politics?

Simone.

To Greebo and Simone...

Isn't chit chat about chit chat?

If you don't like it don't you think it better not to reply? Just like TV, if you don't like what you're watching change channels :)
 
Hmm I agree slim. I remember quite a few times that people wee howled down for asking the same thing......its chit chat......no one makes you open the thread. If you dont want to have a political discussion then dont.....hmmm again what happened to freedom of speech. Isnt chit chat for off topic discussions.
 
Careful of that freedom of speech thing - I got an infraction for using those exact words on here once...

But yeah, Chit Chat is that... If I were to go to a reptile party (which I have never been too but if I did) I would chat about reptiles and other things becuase I do not like to be to narrow minded and I like to be able to expand on my conversation. Afterall, it's how you get to know people.

This topic was a bit of a dead one tho :( We need a new motivational to ge tthings on the move!!!
 
My opinion is better safe than sorry. The men that flew the planes into the WTC on 9/11 were all known as nice, quiet people. Look at the devastation they caused......the Bali bombers, the London ones. They were all decent people until..........

I dont care what race or religion. If in doubt, protect the masses.
As I said JMO
 
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