is the new tank you're going to build gonna have big gaps in it?
hatchies in click clacks.
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what in the bejesus are you talking about?
my point exactly. easy.Classic APS thread yet again
Click-clacks for me - get two to a heat mat, small and easy to maintain.
gotta say, i totally agree. people see hatchies in petshops in 20x15cm tubs and think thats the way to do it. or see a breeder with 35 hatchies in tubs and think lets follow.NO they dont its all crap most people use them because there sheep and follow the croud and dont know any better breeders use them because it is a lot easyer for them less room,feeding, cleaning, etc
kaylaismyth
Active Member
I dont mean to thread hi jack, Im just curious and trying to do the right thing for the snake Im going to get. Whyme knows cause he was on my thread the other day, my new enclosure is 56cm long, 40cm wide and 45cm tall. I look at it and it doesn't seem too big. So for a hatchie thats a few months old, is that still gonna be too big?
Should I SERIOUSLY consider setting up a click clack before anything?
Should I SERIOUSLY consider setting up a click clack before anything?
Whyme
Seriously... mate if you bought a snake it is yours - do what you like with it!!! Don't come on here asking questions if you know all the answers already? Some people here have given there opinion on why hatchlings should be in click clacks and some have given their opinion on why it's ok not to. You seem to be rebutting alot of those that reccomend it... Did you start this thread to pick fights???
Ivon
Seriously... mate if you bought a snake it is yours - do what you like with it!!! Don't come on here asking questions if you know all the answers already? Some people here have given there opinion on why hatchlings should be in click clacks and some have given their opinion on why it's ok not to. You seem to be rebutting alot of those that reccomend it... Did you start this thread to pick fights???
Ivon
Barno111
Well-Known Member
All i will say on the subject! is that i have had hatcho's. When i was really a newby to the snake world, and put them in 3ft enclosures! even though these snakes were 60cm in length, they seemed fine in the enclosure! But they wouldnt eat. As soon as i put them back into click clack they ate! so there must have been some stress there! These snakes were a 10 month old coastal and a 10 month old jungle! both did the same! So there must have been some stress there!
OK. i understand about the newcomers. but the drink driving thing. if i drove home 52 nights of the year and did have an accident on night number 52, the odds are still in my favour. Not meaning any disrespect, i understand he is a DR, something I'm not, but what does he base all this on. has he seen all the enclosures. what is his version of a stressed snake? what is his opinion of hatchies that thrive in large enclosures? I would be curious to find out. thanks.
so what do you think? or are you a fence sitter?Whyme
Seriously... mate if you bought a snake it is yours - do what you like with it!!! Don't come on here asking questions if you know all the answers already? Some people here have given there opinion on why hatchlings should be in click clacks and some have given their opinion on why it's ok not to. You seem to be rebutting alot of those that reccomend it... Did you start this thread to pick fights???
Ivon
You wanna fight?
Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
those small, enclosed spaces that hatchies like to hide in, would be better replicated in a large enclosure with more hides in it. dont you think. I have'nt heard of a wild hatchie spending its time in a 1x1ft space for 12 months. i could be wrong though
Think of it this way.If its just down to convenience on the breeders part then why do we always recommend to a purchaser to keep the hatchy in a click clack type setup? I mean if we truly believed that bigger is better then why would it be a concern to us that you would want to keep it in a large enclosure?
From personal experience with lots of hatchies breeders do quickly realise that hatchlings are much happier and feel much more secure in tubs.
A mac for example would quite happily live out its entire life under a rock if all its needs were met.
I'll have a shot. I'll be up your way in about 8 weeks for a bout.
All i want to know, is there any real evidence of this stressing hatchies out. I know people have had their issues, but is this a minority thing. Like i said, I've never had an issue. I'm not saying I've have all the answers, i just cant see the point in CCs apart from security, ease, and to stop escapes. If enough hides are in the box what stresses them out.Bowmer
New Member
I personally use Click Clacks for my Hatchlings.
When i got my first snake my friend got one at the same time as me. Both snakes from the same breeder, hatched same day, and had eaten and shed the same amount. He however decided to set up a decent sized display enclosure for his whilst i put mine in a click clack with a water bowl and hide on a heat mat.
Both snakes continued to eat, shed and live happily, however whenever my friend went to get his out of the enclosure, it would strike defensively.
When i went to get mine out of the enclosure it would crawl out of the enclosure onto my arm happily.
Once out both snakes were fine, there were no problems and anyone of any age could have handled them.
There are a number of possibilities as to why this was the case, however i believe that the one in the click clack felt safer, and more secure where as the one in the display enclosure was more stressed out and jumpy.
Having said this, 1 example doesn't make it fact, and i'm not saying people using larger enclosures are doing the wrong thing but from my experiences Click Clacks are the way to go.
I will always recommend anyone who gets a hatchling to use a click clack, and i will always use a click clack for my hatchlings.
When i got my first snake my friend got one at the same time as me. Both snakes from the same breeder, hatched same day, and had eaten and shed the same amount. He however decided to set up a decent sized display enclosure for his whilst i put mine in a click clack with a water bowl and hide on a heat mat.
Both snakes continued to eat, shed and live happily, however whenever my friend went to get his out of the enclosure, it would strike defensively.
When i went to get mine out of the enclosure it would crawl out of the enclosure onto my arm happily.
Once out both snakes were fine, there were no problems and anyone of any age could have handled them.
There are a number of possibilities as to why this was the case, however i believe that the one in the click clack felt safer, and more secure where as the one in the display enclosure was more stressed out and jumpy.
Having said this, 1 example doesn't make it fact, and i'm not saying people using larger enclosures are doing the wrong thing but from my experiences Click Clacks are the way to go.
I will always recommend anyone who gets a hatchling to use a click clack, and i will always use a click clack for my hatchlings.
peterjohnson64
Very Well-Known Member
As I said Whyme, Robert Johnson states that the MOST COMMON reason for getting snakes in is for stress related issues associated with larger enclosures. Not only is he a Vet but he specialises in reptiles. He has co-written lots of protocols that have been published and adopted by NPWS (and mentioned in threads on this site that get bumped in 5 minutes because people in here aren't interested in threads with credible content). Why do you need to question his authority? His experience is with thousands of animals and he is fully qualified. My mentioning of his comments comes from a talk he gave at Mac Herps. He was quite forceful in making the point about hatchies in large enclosures and it was definitely the main message that I took away from the presentation. I would also urge you to read John Weigal's book to see what it recommends. Again, a person making a recommendation based on experience with thousands of animals.
Sure, Robert Johnson probably hasn't seen all the enclosures but as a professional he does ask about the conditions the animals are being kept in when they are bought in to his surgery. He bases his opinion on seeing the thousands of snakes he has seen. His version of a stressed snake is one that refuses to eat. I dont kow what else you could use to determine stress?? And he didn't make a comment about hatchies that thrive in large enclosures probably because not many people who have thriving snakes take them to see him. But please don't take this to mean that because he doesn't see them it is the norm. I used the drink driving analogy because I am sure that most people who drink drive never have an issue and still drive fine. But the risk isn't worth it and whilst you may do it you probably wouldn't recommend it to others.
And JasonL probably confirmed the reason for them not eating. The snakes find a hide at the cold end of the cage and never come out. Their owners always want to handle them and that probably gives them more stress than the enclosures does. They don't get enough warmth and so don't eat. If you have their entire cage at 30 degress you would probably overcome this issue. But we also teasch the new keepers to have gradient. Maybe you could only have the hides at the warm end? But then the newbie would never see their snake because it would stay in the hide all day.
People say that the snakes in the wild don't live in 1 foot square areas. Interestingly, I have never seen a hatchy python in the wild but I Have seen plenty of adults so I can only guess that they don't both hang around the same places. Also, only about 1 in 200 hatchy pythons in the wild will grow to adults. Do we want the same odds for our pets? The old addage of "replicating the wild" is senseless because we want much much better odds of our babies surviving so we need to create much much better environments. There are probably plenty of hatchies in the wild that die of starvation.
And, yes, I also agree that it is far easier and more convenient to keep the hatchies in small tubs. But we are also trying to give the new keepers the best chance of having a healthy snake that grows up without the need to go to a vet and that is done in a small tub much easier than a large enclosure. How many posts do you see here from people concerned that their snake hasn't eaten? It is a common problem.
Another concern I have is that a thread like this keeps going on APS for days and days. It would certainly give me the impression (as a new keeper) that is is fine to keep hatchies in large enclosures. And yet when someone posts a thread with a paper entitled "Hygiene Protocol for Control of Diseases in Captive Snakes" with a link to an extremely important paper that EVERY new snake keeper should read it gets zero comments or replies and flies off the radar within minutes.
Sure, Robert Johnson probably hasn't seen all the enclosures but as a professional he does ask about the conditions the animals are being kept in when they are bought in to his surgery. He bases his opinion on seeing the thousands of snakes he has seen. His version of a stressed snake is one that refuses to eat. I dont kow what else you could use to determine stress?? And he didn't make a comment about hatchies that thrive in large enclosures probably because not many people who have thriving snakes take them to see him. But please don't take this to mean that because he doesn't see them it is the norm. I used the drink driving analogy because I am sure that most people who drink drive never have an issue and still drive fine. But the risk isn't worth it and whilst you may do it you probably wouldn't recommend it to others.
And JasonL probably confirmed the reason for them not eating. The snakes find a hide at the cold end of the cage and never come out. Their owners always want to handle them and that probably gives them more stress than the enclosures does. They don't get enough warmth and so don't eat. If you have their entire cage at 30 degress you would probably overcome this issue. But we also teasch the new keepers to have gradient. Maybe you could only have the hides at the warm end? But then the newbie would never see their snake because it would stay in the hide all day.
People say that the snakes in the wild don't live in 1 foot square areas. Interestingly, I have never seen a hatchy python in the wild but I Have seen plenty of adults so I can only guess that they don't both hang around the same places. Also, only about 1 in 200 hatchy pythons in the wild will grow to adults. Do we want the same odds for our pets? The old addage of "replicating the wild" is senseless because we want much much better odds of our babies surviving so we need to create much much better environments. There are probably plenty of hatchies in the wild that die of starvation.
And, yes, I also agree that it is far easier and more convenient to keep the hatchies in small tubs. But we are also trying to give the new keepers the best chance of having a healthy snake that grows up without the need to go to a vet and that is done in a small tub much easier than a large enclosure. How many posts do you see here from people concerned that their snake hasn't eaten? It is a common problem.
Another concern I have is that a thread like this keeps going on APS for days and days. It would certainly give me the impression (as a new keeper) that is is fine to keep hatchies in large enclosures. And yet when someone posts a thread with a paper entitled "Hygiene Protocol for Control of Diseases in Captive Snakes" with a link to an extremely important paper that EVERY new snake keeper should read it gets zero comments or replies and flies off the radar within minutes.
peterjohnson64, good points. thanks for taking the time to post that. i will check that book out. Thanks for the info. as for the stress thing, i remove mine to feed. possibly the reason i havent had issues. As for newcomers and all the variables with a large cage, I see your point.
Lovemydragons
Well-Known Member
I have a bredli, got her at about 6 months old. She's been in a 52 litre click clack (pretty big tub for her size) the entire time. She hid a little bit, but otherwise hangs her in branches most of the time. She also gets fed in her tub, lucky cos she takes ages to kill her dead rat, maybe a couple of hours later she's actually eaten it. She's never bitten me either.
She's now 1 year old, and am looking at upgrading her into an enclosure, but we're waiting for our new house to be built, will probably wait till then, so we have the room. But she's happy in her click clack.
She's now 1 year old, and am looking at upgrading her into an enclosure, but we're waiting for our new house to be built, will probably wait till then, so we have the room. But she's happy in her click clack.
elapid66
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ok at no point l have said it is a better way to keep young snakes but if you give them what they need as in lots of hides etc theres is no probs saying that i would not advise a noobie to keep them that way i am just saying it can be done with good results. enough said
shlanger
Well-Known Member
I have been keeping and breeding for some 40yrs! In my opinion hatchies 'do better' in smaller containers!
euphorion
Very Well-Known Member
Whyme
Seriously... mate if you bought a snake it is yours - do what you like with it!!! Don't come on here asking questions if you know all the answers already? Some people here have given there opinion on why hatchlings should be in click clacks and some have given their opinion on why it's ok not to. You seem to be rebutting alot of those that reccomend it... Did you start this thread to pick fights???
Ivon
ditto. click clacks for me.
tenacres1100
Very Well-Known Member
sounds like the answer from someone who makes enclosures
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