Leucistic Blue-tongue Skinks

[richardsc]

dabool u dont mean a lutino galah do u,if not id love to see a pic of a luecistic galah as well

 

[Bapi]

Hi I don't know if this helps but in his book Reptile & Amphibians variants - H.Bernard bechtel states he performed the Dopa reaction on biopsies of albino san diego gopher snakes that produced normally coloured young in 1978. By this he determined that one was T+ and the other T-.

The guy who reorganised the naming of parrot mutations is Dr. Terry Martin - his book available from ABK publication on parrot mutations is well worth a read. Oddly enough he doesn't mention leucistic at all - probably (and this is conjecture here) because its is not specific enough.

Leucistic has a long history in bird watching. Words are what we define them to be - literally leucistic means whitish or headed in a white direction (in the same way that optimistic means happyish or headed in a optimal direction) Birdos use leucisitc to means anything whitish with normal coloured eyes. So it includes pieds, and all sorts of dilutes.

At this point in time there is no single mutation in parrots that fully mimic the leukistic mutation in reptiles. (there are none that affect all chromataphores) to acheive the same result in parrots you need to combine at least two mutations. (this is probably because parrots have a unique class of pigments called psittacins but thats another story)

Lutino galahs are amelanisitc and would be called albinos if they were reptiles. Albino galahs would be called snows if they were retiles so it gets complex......

 

[Frozenmouse]

dabool u dont mean a lutino galah do u,if not id love to see a pic of a luecistic galah as well

no i meant luecistic galah there is a few photos floating around i will try and find them it was a wild bird.

 

[Frozenmouse]

heere is a pic of a luecistic redtailed black cockatoo.

 

[hornet]

thats not leucistic

 

[Retic]

No, that definitely isn't leucistic.

 

[Bapi]

As mentioned the mutant redtailed black cockatoo would be called leucistic by birdos because it is whitish with normal eyes. More properly bird keepers would call it a pied. Birdos have been using leucisitc for a long time so I don't think its appropriate for us reptile keepers to tell them they are wrong. They would in tern tell us we use albino wrong and we should call them lutinos and what we call snows (albino X axanthic) are "proper" albinos but I digress. If you google leucistic you will get all sorts of whitish birds.

As an aside pied pythons have white areas (leucistic ) on normal coloured areas where as pied parrots/cockatoos have areas of hypomelanisitc (yellow/red coloured) areas on normal skin. (unless combined with a xanthic (blue) mutation).

 

[richardsc]

the cocky looks yellow and black,luecistics dont have normal eyes,BLUE/BLACK EYES,i do think u have something special there,well who ever owns those northerns which i still say are hypos,definatly not a true luecistic,but where ever they are placed in the mutation stakes,lovely looking animals,would u by chance be able to get a pic of what a new born or juvie looks like,just curious to see what the juvies look like compared to the bigger one,jason lappins,wow that eastern certainly turned pale,nice pic

 

[Bapi]

I can say with some authority that the correct name for the mutation of the cockatoo is Pied (check out "a guide to colour mutations & genetics in parrots" by Dr Terry Martin BVSc page 98)
I am well aware they are something special. Despite the general reaction of this list every herpo who has seen them in the flesh has started drooling so its clear they are something special.
Will try to get the requested pics.
On the upside I am now aware of some tests I can do to catergorise the mutation more fully and a little more scientific than just looking at them in my hand. Will start to organise those when the everyone else goes back to work on tuesday. Will keep you posted.

 

[Retic]

I don't think anyone is saying they aren't different, a few people seem to have posted photo's of similar animals so they aren't unique but it is clear they aren't leucistic.

 

[euan]

Euan,


You are just as aware as I am that scientific papers aren't in abundance where albino's and other reptile morph's etc are concerned. Researchers tend to concentrate on wild types rather than putting valuable research dollars into establishing whether David Barker has correctly labeled something as T+ and T-.
The fact remains that just because something might not yet of had a scientific paper(in relation to pythons) written about it doesn't mean he and many others aren't correct in their assumptions.
I seem to remember some time ago talk in the Leopard gecko community there was talk about undertaking Tyrosinase tests to establish what was what. I think there was also some work done on Rat snakes also.

As far as having not been in a big enough circle of herpetoculture, well maybe just a case of not being in a circle of herpetoculture that encompasses your views. There are many big name breeders that go along with the T+ and T- labels two of which you have mentioned yourself and countless others to boot.

What would you classify the animals as that are currently labeled as T+ and T-?
What would you label the conditions if not that described?

At the end of the day, people will always have different views and takes on the subject, mine is as I have expressed as it makes sense to me.

Cheers Neil

Neil You are reading my remarks from your eyes The problem with forums is there is no real emotion which us humans use to understand each other.
My circle of herpetoculture acquaintances, circles the world litterally, name a country with a reptile industry and I would probably have an acquaintance there from hobby to professional, from retail to export

I am not saying those animals labeled as T+ or T- are or are not, just noting that as far as I was aware it was not proven. People have been using the terms simply because another did without real knowledge of the correctness of the term or not. Frequently we see in all walks of life people saying things without any real knowledge of the subject rather they say it because another did, not because they actually know it Example how many people made comments on this thread without any real knowledge ???

I forgot about Bechtel's book, unfortunately my copy is in storage in the USA. He could be considered the grandfather of mutation reptile breeding started with albino cornsnakes nearly before I was born (an exaggeration). I can't remember when it was published but I think Krieger published it around the mid nineties.

Knowing quite well the extent of mutation reptile breeding in the USA, and haven returned to Australia to find it is now a mini USA I have no doubt that mutation reptile breeding here will expand phenomenonally. So now is a good time to try and clear up mutation naming where possible. There are a couple of published books available to start from. Though to be fair in regards to one by Stephan Broghammer I have a dispute with him in regards to the naming of Jungle Ball Pythons We have discussed it previously and we still do not agree

As Bapi noted and I alluded to Terry Martin did research into bird mutations and their names and help greatly IMHO to remove a lot of confusion. Now that mutation reptiles have started to become available in Australia more confusion will come here. Especially when one considers that very few people in Australia have any experience with reptile mutation breeding and naming. Which is why I used the term "common usage".

It does amaze me though that nobody has done the research in the USA to produce (something like Terry Martins work) something modern on reptile mutations.

 

[Bapi]

"It does amaze me though that nobody has done the research in the USA to produce (something like Terry Martins work) something modern on reptile mutations"

I think it will be a long time before that happens. people have been breeding bird mutations for a very long time and there are lots of them and lots of examples. Even so, so far only parrot mutations have been "sorted out" There are many other groups of birds which are still waiting. Finches, pigeons/doves etc.

The high incidence of pattern mutations and long generation time in pythons is going to make it even harder to get consistency across species.

Anyway in an attempt to get some sort of consensus.
I am still left with this question. what would people call a mutation of chromatophore function that affects their function incompletely. (ie low, but not absent in all pigment types) ? - (leaving aside for a minute whether thats what these blueys are or not) Hypomelanisitic does cut it for me because that is a scientific term that means low melanin. To me a hypomelanisitc mutation is one which reduces ONLY melanin production.
It seems that the consensus is that the term leucisitic should mean only the complete malfunction of chromatophores. (excluding the eyes) - so what would we call a related mutation that only affects their function a bit.

 

[Frozenmouse]

all i can say is the white blueys are stunning when you see them in real life and i recon any bit as nice an albino bluey which i also like alot.
May be you could make up some elaborate queer sounding name for their mutation like what the yanks do probably helps to stop arguments.
i still say they are luecistic as hypomelanistic only starts to describe their mutation.

 

[richardsc]

hypomelanistic only starts to describe there mutation so your saying there leucistic,hmmmm ok
on a personal level,i think these northerns look 1000 times nicer than the albino easterns,those albinos just dont look right to me,lol,the black easterns look awsome though,bapi thanks mate,would love to see a pic or 2 of these northerns as juvies,even a few together with normal appearing siblings,are they as pale as the adults when they are newborn or does it develop with age,i totally agree with u dabool,those white/pale northerns look very nice indeed,im imagining the pic doesnt do them justice either

 

[NCHERPS]

Neil You are reading my remarks from your eyes The problem with forums is there is no real emotion which us humans use to understand each other.
My circle of herpetoculture acquaintances, circles the world litterally, name a country with a reptile industry and I would probably have an acquaintance there from hobby to professional, from retail to export

I am not saying those animals labeled as T+ or T- are or are not, just noting that as far as I was aware it was not proven. People have been using the terms simply because another did without real knowledge of the correctness of the term or not. Frequently we see in all walks of life people saying things without any real knowledge of the subject rather they say it because another did, not because they actually know it Example how many people made comments on this thread without any real knowledge ???

I forgot about Bechtel's book, unfortunately my copy is in storage in the USA. He could be considered the grandfather of mutation reptile breeding started with albino cornsnakes nearly before I was born (an exaggeration). I can't remember when it was published but I think Krieger published it around the mid nineties.

Knowing quite well the extent of mutation reptile breeding in the USA, and haven returned to Australia to find it is now a mini USA I have no doubt that mutation reptile breeding here will expand phenomenonally. So now is a good time to try and clear up mutation naming where possible. There are a couple of published books available to start from. Though to be fair in regards to one by Stephan Broghammer I have a dispute with him in regards to the naming of Jungle Ball Pythons We have discussed it previously and we still do not agree

As Bapi noted and I alluded to Terry Martin did research into bird mutations and their names and help greatly IMHO to remove a lot of confusion. Now that mutation reptiles have started to become available in Australia more confusion will come here. Especially when one considers that very few people in Australia have any experience with reptile mutation breeding and naming. Which is why I used the term "common usage".

It does amaze me though that nobody has done the research in the USA to produce (something like Terry Martins work) something modern on reptile mutations.

God, that's alot of smilies!
I have sent you a PM Euan.

Neil

 

[Frozenmouse]

hypomelanistic only starts to describe there mutation so your saying there leucistic,hmmmm ok
on a personal level,i think these northerns look 1000 times nicer than the albino easterns,those albinos just dont look right to me,lol,the black easterns look awsome though,bapi thanks mate,would love to see a pic or 2 of these northerns as juvies,even a few together with normal appearing siblings,are they as pale as the adults when they are newborn or does it develop with age,i totally agree with u dabool,those white/pale northerns look very nice indeed,im imagining the pic doesnt do them justice either

well there more luecistic than hypo so it would be more acurate hmmmm ok. weirdo

 

[Kimbully]

This is interesting reading! Casper the croc is apparently leucistic - http://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-...rocodilians&animal=Saltwater_Crocodile#Casper