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I don't think absolute sexual maturity is the answer. For it is possible to have an older snake that doesn't develop working sexual paraphernalia. Would this make a 20 year old snake that has never bred, a juvy ? No.

I think, the 'average' age of sexual maturity across a particular species would be closer to a definition. Now, I don't know what age Amethystine become sexually mature, but lets assume, simply for this discussion, it is 4 years. Some may breed at 3 (early developer), some at 5 (late developer). That would make an Amethystine at 4 years of age and over, an adult, regardless of ability to breed. It would be a late bloomer, a slow developer, or a non producer, but it has passed the average age of first clutch for that species. The average sexual maturity age.

Humans as a species have a shifting line of adulthood depending on culture, lets agree with our society and claim 18 years of age as adulthood. If a child male or female, passes 18, and although sexually active, never manages to conceive or impregnate, does that drop them back to child status ? No, they are still considered to be adults, wether capable of children or not.

*Pondering... In some cultures a girl child is considered a woman at first menstruation. In other cultures, it is when the girl child conceives. When then, are the children of these cultures considered adults if they are not capable of reproduction ? What defines the time when a boy child is taken out for his first kill, the kill that raises him to adulthood status ?

It is all a moot point when considering the thread in question though. For although the seller calls this snake an adult at 5 foot, she doesn't mention how old it is.

Likely it's age is uncertain and the seller assumes the size, compared to most snake species, makes it an adult. :p
 
Well said ;)

Heh, thanks. :)
Your post wasn't up there when I started typing my essay, didn't mean to tread on your toes. :p

However, I don't think size is an issue here at all. It is certainly relevant if we wish to breed our animals and keep them healthy, but not neccessary when considering juvy to adult status. As equally, an undersize older male can still be capable of breeding successfully.

My ethiopian coastal, at 5, although very small and likely not of a size suitable for a healthy viable clutch, would I think, still be considered an adult, based on average sexual maturity age across the mcdowelli species. She is simply an adult in an undersized body.

Equally, there is nothing to indicate she isn't fertile and capable other than my lack of desire to breed her based on size. She may very well be totally formed and capable of producing a small clutch. I think it would be unhealthy for her to do so and I would not attempt it.

Perhaps this is where the more pedantic definitions come in. Hatchling, juvenile, young adult, adult, geriatric. ;)
 
Please correct me if Im wrong but if a snake or any other species are not ready to conceive generally they wont and if they do generally the species is infeirour (spl).
 
Please correct me if Im wrong but if a snake or any other species are not ready to conceive generally they wont

Naturally. Usually the body needs to be in peak condition to produce ova that are fit for sterilisation and implanting to the uterus. There are exceptions of course. Biologically we are programmed to reproduce, even sometimes at the cost of the parent (host).


and if they do generally the species is infeirour (spl).

Do you mean species or offspring ?


I think, across the board, if an unhealthy or undersize specimen manages to conceive, then usually the offspring is spontaneously aborted or dies inuterine when it becomes too difficult for the parent to continue to nourish it. Equally, these offspring, if they do manage to hang on, are born premature and weak with a low survival rate. If it does manage to come to term, often they are undersize or have deformities or developmental problems, physical and sometimes mentally.

Early slugs (miscarriage), infertile eggs and hatchlings that need assistance to pip the egg or don't get out of the egg at all (stillborn), birth defects and hatchlings that fail to thrive would be a classic example of this in reptiles.

Miscarriage, premature birth, stillborn or failure to thrive and birth defects, are seen in mammals also..

With humans, modern medicine helps the less healthy or under developed to manage a pregnancy now and the risk to mother and child is lowered through care and supplementary medication.

Wow... this thread has spiralled !

Sorry Whitey, blame it on my headache that won't let me sleep. :(
 
Naturally. Usually the body needs to be in peak condition to produce ova that are fit for sterilisation and implanting to the uterus. There are exceptions of course. Biologically we are programmed to reproduce, even sometimes at the cost of the parent (host).




Do you mean species or offspring ?


I think, across the board, if an unhealthy or undersize specimen manages to conceive, then usually the offspring is spontaneously aborted or dies inuterine when it becomes too difficult for the parent to continue to nourish it. Equally, these offspring, if they do manage to hang on, are born premature and weak with a low survival rate. If it does manage to come to term, often they are undersize or have deformities or developmental problems, physical and sometimes mentally.

Early slugs (miscarriage), infertile eggs and hatchlings that need assistance to pip the egg or don't get out of the egg at all (stillborn), birth defects and hatchlings that fail to thrive would be a classic example of this in reptiles.

Miscarriage, premature birth, stillborn or failure to thrive and birth defects, are seen in mammals also..

With humans, modern medicine helps the less healthy or under developed to manage a pregnancy now and the risk to mother and child is lowered through care and supplementary medication.

Wow... this thread has spiralled !

Sorry Whitey :(

Thankyou Wrasse
I wasnt sure how different herps were to dogs,horses and cows which is all ive studied.Im trying to learn how our herps differ from the domestics ?
 
Has anyone emailed them to find out and see what it looks like?? I would but a US email addy isn't likely to get much response.. Hey maybe soomeone slipped in a Tanambar ... Randy
 
i emailed about her yesterday and have'nt got a response yet?
could we have some scrubby breeders opinions?
i still think it would'nt be possible to have a 5ft adult scrub. you cant compare them with coastals or any other species except maybe oenpelli and olives because they just dont grow as long. even in the first year underfed they reach 5ft very quick.
 
Whitey - I am with you on this one. Have bred scrubs and have never come across an adult 5ft suitable or even capable for breeding - especially a female.
Perhaps she has underestimated the size of the scrub or the maturity level but something isnt quite right.
 
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