Question for 'Hot" Keepers

[eipper]

To Quote Andynic

"The laws of thermodynamics would have an object that cannot produce its own heat or have a way to cool down becoming the temperature of the environment around it I think. A persons body temperature does not fluctuate much unless we are sick or we cannot heat/cool ourselves sufficiently by sweating or shivering in which case our body will start to shut down."



Yes but you assume that reptiles do not have means of changing their body temperature other than outside thermal influences ie radiant heat or heat via conduction.

Snakes do shiver, crocodilians pant (and divert blood supply around to suit), lizards gular pulse. Loose or tight coiling and thus increasing/decreasing the rate of heat exchange via exposed surface area plus many other examples.

Mammals and some reptiles eg a Luth do expend energy on thermal regulation. A person who dies, no long produces heat on its own accord and thus cools to the temperature of the immediate environment.

 

[andynic07]

Very good post eipper. I was probably more looking at snakes than the entire reptile species and didn't take into account snakes shivering as I thought that was only done by females with eggs and assumed that this is a very energy expensive exercise for them. I guess snakes choose thermoregulation over shivering because it expends very little energy. Thank you for the explanation.


Also what is a gular pulse?

 

[The_Truth]

If you have zero heat in a cage the whole year round the cage will never be at one heat temp at any point, the cage will go up and down with the seasons.

If you insulate a cage well at one end then you will create a gradient in the cage even if the cage is not heated as the outside temp will influence how hot and cold the cage can get through out provided the cage is large enough to allow this, so in a 2ft cage it wouldn't work, in a 10 ft cage it would, for arguments sake.

Everyone is also focusing on the snake basking in the sunlight or under a basking spot, what no one has mentioned is a snake actually gets a fair amount of it's heat from the place it is basking. So if you see a snake in summer on a rock the rock is usually already very warm before the morning sun even gets on it.

No one can conclusively say how much is sunlight and how much is object it is laying on at that particular time, not without a lot of testing and creating a test group etc etc.

So in a well insulated cage with a low wattage heat mat you can create a warm end and a cold end without a basking light.

There are very few people on this forum that can say they have kept and housed a snake in captivity for 10+ years let alone 15+ and not just one or two but a large number I won't mention numbers.

Before you can focus on basking spot, you need to take into account a whole lot of variables starting with the cage itself and ending with the room in which the cage is housed.

Yes I didn't mentioned these in the initial post as I was collecting data on limited information.

 

[longqi]

I understand what you are saying here
In Bali we rarely heat anything
But our ambient temperature runs between 20c and 35c

If your room/house in Victoria had suitable daily temperature swings I can see this working out
But I dont think it could work in an uninsulated tin shed etc

 

[Riffherper]

With no heat in a standard enclosure in a standard house I'd be risking RI

 

[cement]

If you have zero heat in a cage the whole year round the cage will never be at one heat temp at any point, the cage will go up and down with the seasons."

Thats true , but if that cage is in a house, then the transfer of heat and cold will be slow and stable, and quite often not reaching desired temps which means uncomfortableness and stress.
If the cage is an outdoor avairy and set up so it gets full day sun and plenty of cool retreat then yes, you will not need a heat source for local species.
The most important thing is that they are given a "range" of temperatures so they get to decide what they want and when. Having that choice is a fundamental basic to keeping them.
Some people like to keep their vens cool, because they are easier to handle, but thats not an apropriate method.


There are very few people on this forum that can say they have kept and housed a snake in captivity for 10+ years let alone 15+ and not just one or two but a large number I won't mention numbers.

Are you sure about that?

 

[cement]

Very good post eipper. I was probably more looking at snakes than the entire reptile species and didn't take into account snakes shivering as I thought that was only done by females with eggs and assumed that this is a very energy expensive exercise for them. I guess snakes choose thermoregulation over shivering because it expends very little energy. Thank you for the explanation.


Also what is a gular pulse?

From memory, I remember it to be the ability to regulate blood flow by speeding up or slowing down the heart rate. Which in turn heats and cools the body. Not 100% sure I am correct but thats my 2 cents.

 

[andynic07]

The series "life in cold blood" talks about that but did say it had a name. They really are clever animals. Thanks for the reply.

 

[andynic07]

If you have zero heat in a cage the whole year round the cage will never be at one heat temp at any point, the cage will go up and down with the seasons.

If you insulate a cage well at one end then you will create a gradient in the cage even if the cage is not heated as the outside temp will influence how hot and cold the cage can get through out provided the cage is large enough to allow this, so in a 2ft cage it wouldn't work, in a 10 ft cage it would, for arguments sake.

Everyone is also focusing on the snake basking in the sunlight or under a basking spot, what no one has mentioned is a snake actually gets a fair amount of it's heat from the place it is basking. So if you see a snake in summer on a rock the rock is usually already very warm before the morning sun even gets on it.

No one can conclusively say how much is sunlight and how much is object it is laying on at that particular time, not without a lot of testing and creating a test group etc etc.

So in a well insulated cage with a low wattage heat mat you can create a warm end and a cold end without a basking light.

There are very few people on this forum that can say they have kept and housed a snake in captivity for 10+ years let alone 15+ and not just one or two but a large number I won't mention numbers.

Before you can focus on basking spot, you need to take into account a whole lot of variables starting with the cage itself and ending with the room in which the cage is housed.

Yes I didn't mentioned these in the initial post as I was collecting data on limited information.

I am reading that you think that there are only a small number of keepers that use heat cords/mats or heat panels instead of lights for a heat source. Is this what you are saying? If so that is very wrong because as far as I am aware the majority of people use mats or cord for young snakes and all racks use this heating method.

 

[The_Truth]

A ten or fifteen year old snake is not a young snake, I am well aware of rack systems and heat mats for hatchies but how many hatchling snakes have you seen in a ten foot cage by themself?

 

[getarealdog]

I keep my adult tigers & rbb's in tubs/cages from may-ish to august-ish in the garage on heat cords/tiles at around 15degrees. Don't feed them till they go outside into pits. Juvies & subadults are kept warmer during this period. Once outside they deal with the elements as only they can, I just give them food, water & shelter. Ain't no expert but they do all the things snakes do.

 

[eipper]

If you have zero heat in a cage the whole year round the cage will never be at one heat temp at any point, the cage will go up and down with the seasons.

If you insulate a cage well at one end then you will create a gradient in the cage even if the cage is not heated as the outside temp will influence how hot and cold the cage can get through out provided the cage is large enough to allow this, so in a 2ft cage it wouldn't work, in a 10 ft cage it would, for arguments sake.

Everyone is also focusing on the snake basking in the sunlight or under a basking spot, what no one has mentioned is a snake actually gets a fair amount of it's heat from the place it is basking. So if you see a snake in summer on a rock the rock is usually already very warm before the morning sun even gets on it.

No one can conclusively say how much is sunlight and how much is object it is laying on at that particular time, not without a lot of testing and creating a test group etc etc.

So in a well insulated cage with a low wattage heat mat you can create a warm end and a cold end without a basking light.

There are very few people on this forum that can say they have kept and housed a snake in captivity for 10+ years let alone 15+ and not just one or two but a large number I won't mention numbers.

Before you can focus on basking spot, you need to take into account a whole lot of variables starting with the cage itself and ending with the room in which the cage is housed.

Yes I didn't mentioned these in the initial post as I was collecting data on limited information.

I have got quite a number of snakes that I have had longer than 15 years....that was only back in 98....

I have specifically only mentioned heat (including both conduction and radiant) this includes the radiant heat produced by lighting and heat mats/cord. The later can also heat a reptile via conduction as well.

Room temperature will change with the day and seasons but that is for the most part irrelevant. The cage needs to provide the thermal gradient not the room. This might require less or more energy depending on ambient conditions to remain within the desired thermal range for that species.

 

[junglepython2]

There is a big difference between supplying no heat at all and providing a low wattage heat matt.