Reptiles in NSW Pet Shops - The Debate

[junglepython2]

At the end of the day if it is introduced and reptiles are allowed to be sold in pet stores, we as the breeders will have the power to regulate it through supply. If they don't lift their game then they don't get supplied livestock. Yes it will involve everyone sticking together to achieve it but it is definately possible to do.

Reptile breeders sticking together! I can't see that happening :lol:

 

[Sdaji]

Reptile breeders sticking together! I can't see that happening :lol:

C'mon! If there is one thing you can rely on it's the integrity of the Australian reptile community! No bad apples here! No one would even dream of exploiting an opportunity they saw! :lol:

 

[mysnakesau]

You're kidding, right? Pet shops are great! You can sell all of your dodgy stuff which you don't want your reputation attached to through them! Any hybrids, 'ugly' animals, anything with a bit of a defect... the breeders love them! You can't think that there aren't a lot of dodgy breeders around, surely. Poaching will be a big source of animals for the shops too, have no doubt. Plenty of 'good' reasons for people to have their motives for wanting the shops to come in... it's interesting to see some of the people who are pushing for them

Thanks a lot Sdaji I'll remember not buy any off you for my shop then :lol: I don't want your ugly hybrids or your diseased off load. Deformities I could probably handle - they need someone to love them too. Not all pet shops are bad, mine isn't, anyway.

 

[Inkslinger]

I have NEVER been asked once by anyone be it commercial breeder pet shop trading post petlink etc etc if I knew what I was doing could house it feed it care for it. Only questions asked MONEY LICENCE DETAILS and I am talking 20 years plus here!!

Nor was I ever encouraged to keep in touch or communicate other than if I wanted to purchase again, all a bit Hypocritical IMO

 

[cris]

What beats me is who in their right mind would even want to buy a reptile from a 'Pet Shop' in the first place. We don't have reptiles sold from them in NSW but at best I would imagine a suspect health animal of only average standard would be the best you could hope for.

Especially when you can get top shelf quality from breeders.

This is a fairly sheltered view, just because you can buy straight from top breeders the average kid probably doesnt even know that ppl breed snakes for a living.

I have bought reptiles from both a petshop and a reptile shop.
With the petshop i bought turtles at a higher price at a time of year when i didnt know of anyone that would have any locally. They gave me a good detailed 3-4 page caresheet and didnt even try to sell me crap. I have also bought turtles from a top breeder got very little advice and had them die. It is completely MY fault just as probably 99% of reptile deaths are completely the fault of their owners and poor husbandry to put the blame on the seller is simply a weak cop out(unless it has existing health issues).
I also got a beardy from a reptile shop and dont have any complaints apart from it being about $10-20 more than a breeder would charge in a private sale(it even came with a free vet check that i didnt use because vets in general have far poorer quarantine than any petshop, perhaps they should be banned lol).

 

[Colin]

You're kidding, right? Pet shops are great! You can sell all of your dodgy stuff which you don't want your reputation attached to through them! Any hybrids, 'ugly' animals, anything with a bit of a defect... the breeders love them! You can't think that there aren't a lot of dodgy breeders around, surely. Poaching will be a big source of animals for the shops too, have no doubt. Plenty of 'good' reasons for people to have their motives for wanting the shops to come in... it's interesting to see some of the people who are pushing for them

:lol: at Sdaji

when I used to breed exotic & aussie parrots years ago thats exactly what most bird blokes did, sell the shonky second rate stuff through shops but the good stuff themselves. No one with half a brain would buy pet shop quality at any price.

Personally I think that with animals that are not up to scratch for some reason (and everyone gets them) its better to give them away for free (like the old days) to someone or a kid that can't afford them but is dirt keen and appreciates getting something that they normally wouldn't have.

I reckon thats the go personally, sell all the great animals ourselves privately, and the few that may be slightly flawed (but not sick) give them away to some keen kids for free or for just freight cost. Its a good thing and keeps the money out of these shady pet shops pockets :lol:

That kid will one day also come back and want to buy from the person that gave them a hand
Give the Petshops squat as far as animals goes. And don't spend any money with them

 

[cris]

Plenty of reptile stores breed a portion of there own stock and source quality animals to hold up their reputation. The arguements against it only ever look at the worst examples and fail to see that there are plenty around that arnt that bad even if they are the minority why should they have to suffer because of the bad ones?

 

[mysnakesau]

There are plenty of good pet shops around Colin who look after the animals better than backyard breeders. I for one, take my puppies home every night. but i can tell one thing, the majority of puppies that I buy are dirty, flea bitten, full of worms and had no care what so ever. No needles, nothing. And you blame the pet shops for that??? As Sdaji has said, they get palmed off to pet shops and the breeders take no responsibility at all. I have a hydrobath, and the day puppies come in they are bathed, wormed, I give them capstar flea tablets and booked in for their needles. They look a million dollars when I am finished with them. And i am sure you can find plenty more pet shops around who take just as good care of their animals as what I say I do. My fishtanks are always spotless, my pets are given fresh food and always clean and looked after. Its the minority such as the likes of horror stories I've heard of pet shops selling sick animals, that give the rest of us a bad name.

I know i can say no to poor quality animals but at the end of the day, those animals need homes too. My pet hate, though, is seeing overcrowded cages. If pet shop keepers were able to say "no more" then maybe they'd do a lot better.

 

[Ramsayi]

mysnakesau,if you currently sell reptiles what quarantine procedures are in place?If you have visions of selling reptiles in the future what quarantine procedures would you implement?

 

[Ramsayi]

...

 

[Colin]

Plenty of reptile stores breed a portion of there own stock and source quality animals to hold up their reputation. The arguements against it only ever look at the worst examples and fail to see that there are plenty around that arnt that bad even if they are the minority why should they have to suffer because of the bad ones?

I did not mean stores that breed their own animals. that is an entirely different setup and basically a breeder. I have no problems with setups like URS etc that do have some great stuff available. What I meant was Pet Shop that only buys stock from others and have questionable hygene protocols in place. maybe I should have chosen my words my carefully.

we dont have any reptile pet shops in Sydney and I dont really know what other states shops are like.

But no offense to people on here that own petshops, but my personal experiences with Pet Shops in general has never been that great.

 

[Inkslinger]

Bottom line if you breed in any quantity it is all about MONEY

 

[pugsly]

Good arguments here.

Sdaji, your so passionate about them not coming in, well it doesnt matter. They are. When you accept that maybe you can help those who want to get it right, or as right as possible to ensure it doesnt follow in the footsteps of other states.

Im sick of hearing the 'dodgy pet shop owner' etc etc, these people HOPEFULLY wont be the ones with the licenses at all. If they can make it extremely difficult, there wont be any of them. But seen as though we are all being kept out of the loop who knows what is going on.

As for quarentine, yes it is my biggest concern by far. Why wouldnt it be, people have listed why, people who could have OPMV offloading etc etc. So how to stop that?

Well if I am a Reptile Dealer why would I even PURCHASE any animals to sell off Joe Bloggs, especially if I have and probably WOULD have a collection at home which could be at risk. I would no doubt be selling my OWN animals. But again, there is plenty of loopholes.

The sooner we get over the winging that they are going to come in and start planning for HOW they will come in the better. Arguing about why they shouldn't be is useless at this stage. Trying to come up with solutions for the best way to implement is the idea.

One suggestion, why not keep it to lizards to begin with. Very minimal chance of spreading desease, OPMV and IBD are not a concern, perhaps mites, ticks etc but that is managable. If it is successful, then move onto the next stage.

 

[mysnakesau]

Well said Pugs.

In regards to quarantine, i agree that its a huge issue, not just in pet shops though. But even if you buy from a breeder or a pet shop you should have your own quarantine measure in place rather than waiting for something to wrong and then finding someone else to blame.

I am very picky who I buy my snakes from. i prefered to pay $800 for my jungle from Southern X rather than pay $450 to Joe Bloggs because I am more confident of receiving better animals and in good health. there are many snakes advertised on the forums that i want, but am prepared to wait for friends snakes to grow up and breed simply because I trust the heatlh of their animals over someone I don't know.

One thing that could help in this relation is that pet shops buying in reptiles find themselves a reputable source or more, and lock into a contract & have no choice but to say no to the unknown strays.

 

[Miss B]

I've never purchased anything other than fish from a pet store, but I still think there are good ones and bad ones. My local pet store sells beardie hatchlings, but one of the girls who works there actually breeds them herself.

 

[mattmc]

i wouldnt mind them in shop as long as there is strict regulations and someone who fortnightly atleast checks the store aswell as mystery buyers. all the staff should have a reptile license and price should be fair. the shop should only sell reptiles and frogs(no elapids) and husbandry equip etc. all liceneses would be needed buy buyers on day of purchase and only class 1 animals should be sold. there should be diff people for monitors, dragons, skinks, pythons etc and to get a job there, a person would have to do a course etc. and of course all the enclosures would need to be cleaned daily (like everyone here should do) and people would need to wash hands between herps for obvious reasons. if all that was followed i would go to one. this would boosts popularity and more and more people would start to care for wildlife and want to help make a difference. now this is just my opinion but i stand by it and noone will sway my vote.
cheers
matt

 

[mysnakesau]

i..... there should be diff people for monitors, dragons, skinks, pythons etc and to get a job there, .....cheers
matt

mostly sounds good Matt but are you going to pay the wages for all these different ppl? The more expenses businesses have to pay on wages, insurances, etc. the less they have to put into their animals.

 

[Sdaji]

Good arguments here.

Sdaji, your so passionate about them not coming in, well it doesnt matter. They are. When you accept that maybe you can help those who want to get it right, or as right as possible to ensure it doesnt follow in the footsteps of other states.

Im sick of hearing the 'dodgy pet shop owner' etc etc, these people HOPEFULLY wont be the ones with the licenses at all. If they can make it extremely difficult, there wont be any of them. But seen as though we are all being kept out of the loop who knows what is going on.

As for quarentine, yes it is my biggest concern by far. Why wouldnt it be, people have listed why, people who could have OPMV offloading etc etc. So how to stop that?

Well if I am a Reptile Dealer why would I even PURCHASE any animals to sell off Joe Bloggs, especially if I have and probably WOULD have a collection at home which could be at risk. I would no doubt be selling my OWN animals. But again, there is plenty of loopholes.

The sooner we get over the winging that they are going to come in and start planning for HOW they will come in the better. Arguing about why they shouldn't be is useless at this stage. Trying to come up with solutions for the best way to implement is the idea.

One suggestion, why not keep it to lizards to begin with. Very minimal chance of spreading desease, OPMV and IBD are not a concern, perhaps mites, ticks etc but that is managable. If it is successful, then move onto the next stage.

You think you can't stop them, but can limit them to lizards only?

How to stop people from offloading dodgy animals? You can't. You say "If successful then more on to the next stage" and you are raving on about the 'benefits' of shops, clearly you are 'pro-shop', not just wanting to limit the damage.

I am quite happy to acknowledge that NSW will probably bring shops in, I've been saying it for years. It's not because it is simply something which couldn't be stopped, it's because there is a lot of money driving people to start propaganda campaigns, people being fooled into thinking it can not be stopped, and people not understanding what they are getting into.

Okay, if you're serious about making it "good", push for regulations saying that all animals must be quarantined for six months before being sold, in a room in which during that time no other animals are introduced, and the obligation of proof that it is happening resting on the shop owners. Enforce a two week cooling off period for all sales. Make the previous owner's contact details available to the purchaser. Clearly, even those three things aren't possible to enforce and certainly won't be agreed to, but they're necessary for a shop to be 'good'.

 

[pugsly]

"You think you can't stop them, but can limit them to lizards only?"

It was a simple suggestion..

"How to stop people from offloading dodgy animals? You can't. You say "If successful then more on to the next stage" and you are raving on about the 'benefits' of shops, clearly you are 'pro-shop', not just wanting to limit the damage."

Yes I am pro shop, but pro REPTILE shop. Not pet shop.

"push for regulations saying that all animals must be quarantined for six months before being sold, in a room in which during that time no other animals are introduced, and the obligation of proof that it is happening resting on the shop owners. Enforce a two week cooling off period for all sales. Make the previous owner's contact details available to the purchaser"

All super ideas. Thats what I want to here.

"those three things aren't possible to enforce and certainly won't be agreed to, but they're necessary for a shop to be 'good'"

I disagree, I think they ARE possible to enforce, and if they are nto agreed to then hey, they dont get the Dealers license. I concur, there all necessary, and this is what I am talking about. This isn't something, a decision that should be made behind the general herping communities back. I think we should be involved, to address these issues before we go down the same path as interstate.

I dont think this should be something just just gets decided and bam, you can buy a diamond from ya local. Its something that should be completely openly discussed, with as many issues as possible addressed, then the whole process implemented slowly. If it fails, there is cases of OPMV reported etc etc. Scrap it.

 

[-Peter]

How about pushing for pet shops to come under the same rules as Exhibition license holders.