Spider ball python

[LadyJ]

Why is there a morph of the ball python bred when they all 'wobble' (similar to stargazing), there seem to be some pretty severe cases out there... I don't know who in their right mind would buy (or breed!) a snake with such a defect.

Is there something I'm missing? :|

 

[percey39]

They same goes with jag's.

 

[LadyJ]

They same goes with jag's.

Wow, really? Like, tremors?

 

[percey39]

Yeah very common for these two morphs to show neuro issues. I must admit though some are nearly non existant and others are very distressing to see.

 

[LadyJ]

Oh my... didn't think I could be any more against morphs and crossing, but it just doesn't seem right to me (my opinion, sorry if it offends but it's not going to change). I can't see why people would continue to breed them given the fact this occurs...

 

[scottyo998]

the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding

 

[Kristy_07]

Many purebred dog breeds suffer from similar and other health issues, for similar reasons... yet, many people prefer purebred dogs. Will we see the same in herp industry?

 

[LadyJ]

the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding

Aah... thanks for the explanation. Some of the videos I've seen on the subject - it breaks my heart... I'd never want to buy into or support that in any way (really deters me from ever wanting to breed anything, haha!). I do find these morphs look incredible... I wonder how widespread the problem is here?

 

[scottyo998]

well in aus i dont think the problem is present at all really. Its a US problem. Its in jags because of their limited range of carpets due to australia not exporting them, plus the carpets they do have a pretty much 'muddied' as they treated the original ones they had as just different looking, not aware that they were actually different sub species (from my understanding on the subject) . Here we dont have a limited supply as the US does, so as long as we stay smart, we shouldnt have the same problems.

 

[D3pro]

mmm... it could be that its not the skin morph gene that causes the problem, but rather, a defective gene attached to the morph gene that gets passed on to the sibling.
This could happen with any morph or pure breed line (not limited to snakes).
There have been albino lines with problems that effect the snakes health, but because the breeders don't want to give up the morph trait, they decided to breed it anyway as they reason the pro's outweigh the cons.
Kinda sucks to face these problems.

 

[Tegstep]

the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding

This for the newbies to the hobby is what is affectionately known of as "Line-Breeding" by dodgy breeders.

Beware...

 

[Jimi]

LadyJ it is not a problem here in Oz, if you are concerned about animals being bred for with defects your energy should be directed more so at cats and dogs.

Scotty I'm sure you would be shocked to know all the inbreeding that goes on in the reptile world, its not really an issue.

 

[LadyJ]

Aah, I wasn't aware it was a problem to start with (spare the 'jag culling' thread... but let's not go there), pretty much puts you off and I really hope it isn't widespread here...

And Jimi, trust me, I know all to well of the horrors of companion animal breeding... but let's not go there either.

 

[junglepython2]

the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding

Tremors in Jags has absolutely nothing to do with inbreeding what so ever!

 

[PimmsPythons]

Tremors in Jags has absolutely nothing to do with inbreeding what so ever!

agreed.it has nothing to do with inbreeding.some morps have little "issues"attached to them and sounds like the spider morph has a "wobble"issue.i personally dont know how bad it is but i do know that the neuro issues in jags are a storm in a teacup.unless you have an ultra keen eye ,you wouldn't know there was an issue.with jags it only tends to show when it is placed under an extreme stress situation like if a male jag has been placed in a combat situation with another male during breeding time.my jag girl has never shown any abnormal issues.
cheers
simon

 

[No-two]

(from my understanding on the subject).

And boy that understanding is wrong.

 

[percey39]

There are cases where people have these issues arise later on in life with jags and many that have no visible effects at all. We will have the problems with our jags, as we are only just producing them on a "major" scale recently. These issues are passed down to siblings, but as stated some have next to no visible signs while there are others that corkscrew their entire bodies, star gaze constantly and fall over when trying to climb.
Line breeding is an entirely different arguement and produces problems completely different to that of jags.

 

[Jay84]

Oh my... didn't think I could be any more against morphs and crossing

Not all morphs or hybrids are affected.

 

[NBLADE]

Why is there a morph of the ball python bred when they all 'wobble' (similar to stargazing), there seem to be some pretty severe cases out there... I don't know who in their right mind would buy (or breed!) a snake with such a defect.

Is there something I'm missing? :|

all spiders will wobble at some point in their life, whether its as babys and they lose it as adults, or they don't have it for years then one day start to show it, it seems all will at one point wobble, and it will be from minor head side to side movements when excited, to full blown stargazing, and breeding a minor spinner to a minor spinner has no influence on the babies or how much they spin. But saying all that the spider morph are known for being great feeders. very outgoing and very good breeders, so seems to not affect them at all.

the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding

i believe the spider gene was not messed up through line breeding, but was caused because of the origional male, the origional wild caught spider wobbles, so the wobble has been passed on to all ofspring, nothing to do with line breeding, as the spider morph is a dominant gene that acts co dom, so bred to a normal produces half and half, so there was no need to line breed like there would be for recessive genes.

 

[Jay84]

i believe the spider gene was not messed up through line breeding, but was caused because of the origional male, the origional wild caught spider wobbles, so the wobble has been passed on to all ofspring, nothing to do with line breeding, as the spider morph is a dominant gene that acts co dom, so bred to a normal produces half and half, so there was no need to line breed like there would be for recessive genes.

VERY interesting, so the first spider was a wild caught animal? Not produced in the hands of humans...