DonnB
Well-Known Member
Well said Eipper.
Tongs debate!!
- Thread starter snakehandler
- Start date
Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:
- Status
snakehandler
Very Well-Known Member
With the number of people in a course that would be tonging a snake this would create stress, we would ideally have one snake per person when using tongs, I would use live snakes if DSE would allow me to keep more than 10 of any one species code(as per demonstrator permit regulations in Vic) for this part of the course.
As mentioned about tongs previously, it does create stress and we aim to minimize stress, it has nothing to do with physical harm, you have taken one small part out of a much larger letter, next time put it in context, see the extract below:
Snakehandler policy on teaching the use of tongs is simple:
Tongs are a tool to be used as a last resort along with pinning, look at all other alternatives before attempting either technique
due to the increased stress response from the animal and the potential risk of damage. This is emphasized in our training by
the fact we only use rubber snakes to practice tonging on; we do not allow people to use live snakes as this technique has too
many possible risks that should be avoided if possible.
You will note two things, increased stress response and potential risk of damage, we acknowledge the risk of damage and only us one brand of tongs as they have been demonstrated thus far to be the least likely to cause damage, Scott you stated to me just last year you wanted to test if they did infact cause harm, have you done this yet?
As mentioned about tongs previously, it does create stress and we aim to minimize stress, it has nothing to do with physical harm, you have taken one small part out of a much larger letter, next time put it in context, see the extract below:
Snakehandler policy on teaching the use of tongs is simple:
Tongs are a tool to be used as a last resort along with pinning, look at all other alternatives before attempting either technique
due to the increased stress response from the animal and the potential risk of damage. This is emphasized in our training by
the fact we only use rubber snakes to practice tonging on; we do not allow people to use live snakes as this technique has too
many possible risks that should be avoided if possible.
You will note two things, increased stress response and potential risk of damage, we acknowledge the risk of damage and only us one brand of tongs as they have been demonstrated thus far to be the least likely to cause damage, Scott you stated to me just last year you wanted to test if they did infact cause harm, have you done this yet?
Last edited:
seanjbkorbett
Well-Known Member
my names sean aswell!..:|..hahahahah
Sean,
I am not trying to incite an argument however....
Many handling methods induce stress, if you were concerned about causing serious stress and stress related injuries to your snakes then why would you have novices handling snakes in the first place?
I am currently sorting out paper work (animal ethics approval and scientific permits) to sort out the tonging of snakes....I want to conduct this on wild snakes to get "real" data as opposed to possible false postives/negatives due to using captive snakes.
I have been catching and working with snakes for quite awhile now and I am still yet to find an reason or be put in a situation when I have required to use a set of tongs....or put it another way.....If the snake catcher is competent enough there is most likely no need to use tongs.
I left parts out of the letter out as they were irrelevant to the point I was making, I would be happy to post the whole letter if you like?
Regards,
Scott Eipper
I am not trying to incite an argument however....
Many handling methods induce stress, if you were concerned about causing serious stress and stress related injuries to your snakes then why would you have novices handling snakes in the first place?
I am currently sorting out paper work (animal ethics approval and scientific permits) to sort out the tonging of snakes....I want to conduct this on wild snakes to get "real" data as opposed to possible false postives/negatives due to using captive snakes.
I have been catching and working with snakes for quite awhile now and I am still yet to find an reason or be put in a situation when I have required to use a set of tongs....or put it another way.....If the snake catcher is competent enough there is most likely no need to use tongs.
I left parts out of the letter out as they were irrelevant to the point I was making, I would be happy to post the whole letter if you like?
Regards,
Scott Eipper
snakehandler
Very Well-Known Member
As you will note Scott, the relevant section has been pasted in my last post, the letter was in response to a vitriolic attack by another person here in Victoria that required a reply. I don't think that it is appropriate to post the whole letter as you mention it is not relevant.
I just hope that any study done is not biased, which already appears to be the case, btw as mentioned throughout this thread, many of my clients are actually obliged by OH&S Act to use non-contact methods of control (no hands on), where ever possible. We do teach the use of them, but we also emphasize that they are a last resort technique and all other options should be investigated first. Tongs are not the answer to safe handling techniques, only experience will make a fully competent handler, this cannot be gathered in two days, two weeks, two months or even two years, it is a lifetime of work. Even the best handlers have bad days! Any good quality course will emphasize this from the start, our own statement is that the completion of our course is the start of a long learning journey.
Just to clarify, rubber snakes are only used for techniques which are known to cause stress or potential harm, all other techniques use live snakes including venomous snakes. I find it interesting that people are so anti-tong, as the old equipment does cause injury, yet pinning is fine.
There are several cases of TV personalities and other experienced handlers injuring and killing snakes due to pinning, and also getting serious bites while pinning. So why do the same people who hate tongs, like pinning? In both cases correct training will reduce the risks to both animal and handler, but poor technique will cause harm!
I just hope that any study done is not biased, which already appears to be the case, btw as mentioned throughout this thread, many of my clients are actually obliged by OH&S Act to use non-contact methods of control (no hands on), where ever possible. We do teach the use of them, but we also emphasize that they are a last resort technique and all other options should be investigated first. Tongs are not the answer to safe handling techniques, only experience will make a fully competent handler, this cannot be gathered in two days, two weeks, two months or even two years, it is a lifetime of work. Even the best handlers have bad days! Any good quality course will emphasize this from the start, our own statement is that the completion of our course is the start of a long learning journey.
Just to clarify, rubber snakes are only used for techniques which are known to cause stress or potential harm, all other techniques use live snakes including venomous snakes. I find it interesting that people are so anti-tong, as the old equipment does cause injury, yet pinning is fine.
There are several cases of TV personalities and other experienced handlers injuring and killing snakes due to pinning, and also getting serious bites while pinning. So why do the same people who hate tongs, like pinning? In both cases correct training will reduce the risks to both animal and handler, but poor technique will cause harm!
Last edited:
Stranger
Well-Known Member
IMO. Tongs Have there place in every snake catchers Kit. I believe it should be left to the individual alone to decide weather the tongs are needed as in some cases they are. Ive seen tongs used to get Browns Out of Pipes. where hooks probably wouldnt have fitted. So i beileve in some cases tongs are suitible.
redbellybite
Almost Legendary
Sean ,I dont like pinning ...and 99.9% of the time no need imo...however in the 4 +years that I have held my DM ,I have only pinned once ,because at the time ,that was my only alternative,and admit didnt even think to use a tube ...the senario was a 4 foot eb caught up in old carpet ,it had twisted itself and weaved in and out of the old ruffled carpet and the thread was cutting into parts of the snake ,totally stuck ..except for about 20cm of the bitey end thrashing around ,like a hose let loose with water ,had to cut it out of the carpet but as you can imagine bit of a dangerous call with the head ..so pinned the head ,whilst cutting the carpet ...thinking now couldve used tubing much more gentle on a stressed snake ...wont get into the tong debate with you as you know my views already ..but have to side with Scott ...imo ..if you take time to think about it you can always find another alternative ..then using tongs.
CraigColeman
Not so new Member
Give me a pair of GG tongs, and I bet I can go kill a snake with them. Like alot of people have said, it all depends on the person using the equipment. Weather there is proof or not, or weather it has happened or not, of casue any method of catching a snake can cause injury. Im pretty sure if someone on this forum was man handling a snake with GG tongs and hurt it, they are not about to admit it here.
Also, since when did pinning a snake become the pracitse of cowboys?
Also, since when did pinning a snake become the pracitse of cowboys?
Last edited:
CraigColeman
Not so new Member
Pinning IMO is an essential part of keeping Elaipds, and anyone that works with venomous snakes needs to be able to do it at a minimum.
Id like to see you force feed, medicate, probe etc etc an elapid from a hook or tongs.
Id like to see you force feed, medicate, probe etc etc an elapid from a hook or tongs.
Sean,
I am personally on the side of anti tong, however that said that is my personal preference.....I also prefer my coffee with with 2 sugars, however just because I prefer something does not mean that I am biased.
The whole point of getting a scientific research permit and animal ethics approval is to answer the question....If tongs when used in a normal manner cause undue harm or stress? I think that there is good chance that they could be used safely but that will be up to the results...By all means I will be sending you a copy of the work when its completed, but be aware this will take time.
I have seen plenty of people use them in captive collections....they are fantastic for feeding off rats/mice to large snakes, goannas and crocodilians. However as I have said before that I still wonder the place of them in a competent snakes handlers kit.
For example there are products Like "hexarmor" gloves, tubes, hooks, jiggers (if used properly will not harm snakes), hoop bags. Like everything if used incorrectly can cause harm and stress.
Also as a side note: The issues you have with the person in the letter are between you and him, I am not about to get into it, not my place and quite frankly I could care less it was the statement about tongs that I found relevant.
Craig,
I use tubes for medication and probing its easier and less stressful for both concerned.....for oral examination, on the occasions I have milked snakes, oral medication and for assist and force feeding I use a jigger or a potato mash jigger dependant upon the species involoved.
Cheers,
Scott
I am personally on the side of anti tong, however that said that is my personal preference.....I also prefer my coffee with with 2 sugars, however just because I prefer something does not mean that I am biased.
The whole point of getting a scientific research permit and animal ethics approval is to answer the question....If tongs when used in a normal manner cause undue harm or stress? I think that there is good chance that they could be used safely but that will be up to the results...By all means I will be sending you a copy of the work when its completed, but be aware this will take time.
I have seen plenty of people use them in captive collections....they are fantastic for feeding off rats/mice to large snakes, goannas and crocodilians. However as I have said before that I still wonder the place of them in a competent snakes handlers kit.
For example there are products Like "hexarmor" gloves, tubes, hooks, jiggers (if used properly will not harm snakes), hoop bags. Like everything if used incorrectly can cause harm and stress.
Also as a side note: The issues you have with the person in the letter are between you and him, I am not about to get into it, not my place and quite frankly I could care less it was the statement about tongs that I found relevant.
Craig,
I use tubes for medication and probing its easier and less stressful for both concerned.....for oral examination, on the occasions I have milked snakes, oral medication and for assist and force feeding I use a jigger or a potato mash jigger dependant upon the species involoved.
Cheers,
Scott
CraigColeman
Not so new Member
I consider using a "potato masher" or similar implement to pin the snakes head/neck, still pinning. And either way, pinning elapids, weather you use the technique or not, is something anyone who considered themselves an elapid handler should be able to do IMO.
- Status
Similar threads
