Tongs debate!!

[saratoga]

I didn't say the damage had been caused by tongs.....I couldn't possibly know that.

What I did say was "consistent with" and "not suggesting it applies in this case" and "could have been caused by other factors"

AThis black snake has damaged neck scales consistent with trying to pull back through a set of tongs. Not suggesting this applies in this case, it could also have been caused by other factors; but at any rate probably not the best choice of image to use as a lead into a webpage.

and yes monofilament netting would be one of those other causes, also things like getting stuck in beer cans.

As such I have not made any false allegations.... your photo was simply used to illustrate a point.

However your above post has now raised further questions
you say

Tongs are a last resort method of capture and should only ever be used when there is no alternative...this is something that I have been saying all along.

but then go on to say

OH&S will state that hands off techniques are preferred and due to the lack of perceived control hooking is not the number one method of capture....

So if tongs are a last resort, hooking is not the number one method of capture, and OH&sS states that hands off is the preferred technique......what do use to relocate snakes.

What is the number one method?

With regard to the photo of the black snake...I don't have any problem with it on your site. As a photographer and if it was my site I would not post a picture like that unless it specifically related to damage inflicted by netting or whatever and I explained that. I just don't think you are doing yourself any favours with that photo......why not replace it with one of a nice healthy looking specimen......it only looks better then in the eyes of the public...and with the general public perception of snakes...that can only be a good thing!

 

[No-two]

This is the stupidest thread, why're you even bothering SH, you've allready stated many times they don't cause harm and you obviously love them, seems like a big plug for GG to me aswell.

How did you conduct such a experiment? Did you use them in different ways for different things? Or was it the same over and over? Cause then you just wasted a year, may aswell have just done it once.

 

[mysnakesau]

RBB I can't say here, what I think of them idiots. He shouldn't be playing with the snake, obviously he is scared of it - and these kind of ppl are the ones I am talking about, who get hold of tongs will think they are King Almighty and suddenly know everything there is to know about catching snakes.

He only needed to let go of the python's head and it would have released its grip on him arm :lol:

 

[snakehandler]

My preferred method of capture is the one that suits the situation...the one that best fits with all the conditions that I am confronted with, many cases this in tonging, OH&S statements for large organisations are to cover their butts, I am insured to use all methods of handling both public laibility and income protection.

The last method I consider is actually pinning...due to the nature of the technique.

The study was completed on 132 different snakes over a 12 month period, examining the use of one tool only, each snake was taken from the wild on a snake call out, held for a period of time so that it could be examined by an independant vet, this involved both xray and ultraound. We used it to determine if what we had been told was correct. I do not love the tool, I just understand taht there is sometimes a need for it and would prefer to use a piece of equipment that is not going to damage the snake. I tested no other tongs as I did not like the way they worked and the potential damage. When looking into it we tried pilstrum tongs on a piece of paper, it shredded the paper...instantly it was disregarded....if it can do that to paper what chance a snake.

W are looking at the range of techniques available and the damage or stress that it creates, this is to help put forward handling techniques that are safer for the handler and the snake.

 

[redbellybite]

RBB I can't say here, what I think of them idiots. He shouldn't be playing with the snake, obviously he is scared of it - and these kind of ppl are the ones I am talking about, who get hold of tongs will think they are King Almighty and suddenly know everything there is to know about catching snakes.

He only needed to let go of the python's head and it would have released its grip on him arm :lol:

lol it was more of the commentry Kath that was a wow factor ..after his catching and head holding and being bitten and chasing his sister or g/f and his meathead mates laughing he asks "is it venomous?"and "i dont know what type of snake it is" ....:shock::shock:.at least he didnt kill it so 1 jellybean for this numbnut

 

[Serpentes_15]

This is the stupidest thread, why're you even bothering SH, you've allready stated many times they don't cause harm and you obviously love them, seems like a big plug for GG to me aswell.

How did you conduct such a experiment? Did you use them in different ways for different things? Or was it the same over and over? Cause then you just wasted a year, may aswell have just done it once.

"Plug for GG"?... I fail to see how this compares with them being used as a last resort and only when necesarry. Im sure if you looked up the snakehandler website, as i have just done, you would realise there is little affiliation with midwest tongs, so it's not as if they are in any sort of partnership.

Yours was a stupid question as it's allready been pointed out several times why snakehandler is "bothering". Tongs are obviously a tool used in their bussiness which many people object to. It's been noted that this somewhat circular argument is getting annoying and as an owner of a bussiness snakehandler obviously are looking for evidence that backs the opposing argument. That was the only reason for the thread and it's the only reason i read it. Frankly im pissed off that i had to read everyones opinions to get to this point and still read nothing of interest that was actually to do with the topic of the thread.

Furthermore, if you new anything about scientific method you would understand that replicates are necessary for testing a hypothesis to minimise chance events and variables, therefore it would have been useless to test once and rely on inaccurate results as conclusive evidence... Im no expert in science but this i learnt in year 10 several years ago and assumed it was common knowledge.

 

[BlindSnake]

Snakehandler - You asked for proof...

Im not sure if this has already been mentioned, as I tired of the thread and its tone by early pge 3 - but I can put you in contact with someone who was handling and teaching others to handle before most of us were in nappies, who USED to use tongs...until he broke one of his snakes neck/back using them. He no longer uses them, himself or in his courses.

Before anyone even suggests that the injury was due to his incompetence, well, all I can say is I really, REALLY dont think so...

Although the use of tongs may go without incident for many, it does not mean that injury can not occur, and after all, isnt that what we are supposed to be about..minimising potential harm?.. Its worth thinking about.. Whether that means minimising their use, or not relying on them at all.

I know there ar now tongs which are more 'gentle' but the problem lies in the restraint of a snake at a fixed point, esp in the upper body.

Unless the restraint is directly behind the head, the snake can have the oppertunity to turn back to bite violently, thus breaking the neck/back, as was the case in this instance.

If you are genuine in your intrest, please feel free to shoot me a pm, and I can give you more detail, or put you in contact. Im sure he would be happy to share his xperience.

I am not putting forward an argument for either side, why bother? There has already been enough of that, and ppl will do what they think is best regardless - I am just providing what you asked for, which is proof of injury during proper use..

..and please remember, just because you as a question on APS, dosnt mean you will get all the answers or hear about every incidence of injury! The majority of really serious feild herpers and teachers that I know, are way to busy to spend time in forums!

 

[BlindSnake]

PS.. When I said that unless the snake is restrained directly behind the head, I was not suggesting this is what should be done with tongs, I was trying to point out that if grabbed further down the neck/body, it provides the oppertunity for violent striking backtowards the tongs, or thrashing in general.

When I reas it back again I realised it may not come across as I meant it.

 

[snakehandler]

Thanks blindsnake, I am after these details and I will pm you for more information. A quick question for you in pulbic though...where they pilstrum tongs or gentle giant tongs.....as I have also seen horrific damage done by older style tongs and would never touch them except to show how much damage they can do to a sheet of paper. Until three months ago when a person gave me his old tongs and purchased GG tongs I had never even owned a set of pilstrum tongs for that exct reason. I have seen snakes mutilated by them, shredded and broken bones are not uncommon.

Personally I would have never used pilstrum tongs unless I was picking up rubbish.

This was why we spent a year investigating the claims of midwest and their GG tongs to find out if they where truely as good as they claimed. I have seen no physical damage to the snakes and have discussed this with many zoos who also use them to great effect.

Again what I am saying is tongs are a last resort tool, if you need to use them then the tool should be the most humane available.....if not then they should be banned!

 

[waruikazi]

Actually RBB I have seen a brown launch at a hook and attempt to bite it. A person does not complete a course just by being able to do one technique, they must show competence in all techniques. I can show you defensive action from snakes with every technique used. I can also show you snakes that do not respond defensively to the tongs....in the wild....the technique when taught correctly does not "clamp"down any harder than when you use the technique of tailing....it is just further up the body. Before you condem a technique you should research your information about all techniques and attempt them all over a period of time.

Even with this statement I am yet to see any proof that tongs create harm to a snake.......again RBB you have been successful in getting a defense response....but not one piece of evidence has surfaced....SHOW ME PROOF!

BOLLOCKS!!!

Go to any mine in the Northern Territory and all the miners (well alot anyway) are trained snake relocators. They are taught only the tong and jigger (combined) method. I have used tongs in certain situations, I don't beleive the gentle giants are as safe for the snake as they are made out to be. All tongs need to be modified with padding before they can safely be used on a snake. Like in this picture...

 

[-Peter]

Ya wimp Gordo, hands on man, hands on.

 

[redbellybite]

So are you 100% sure that clamping down on that snake hasnt broken or crushed anything?

 

[snakehandler]

waruikazi already detailed the methods of inspection to determine if injury was done...earlier in the thread.

 

[BlindSnake]

Thanks blindsnake, I am after these details and I will pm you for more information. A quick question for you in pulbic though...where they pilstrum tongs or gentle giant tongs.....as I have also seen horrific damage done by older style tongs and would never touch them except to show how much damage they can do to a sheet of paper. Until three months ago when a person gave me his old tongs and purchased GG tongs I had never even owned a set of pilstrum tongs for that exct reason. I have seen snakes mutilated by them, shredded and broken bones are not uncommon.

Personally I would have never used pilstrum tongs unless I was picking up rubbish.

This was why we spent a year investigating the claims of midwest and their GG tongs to find out if they where truely as good as they claimed. I have seen no physical damage to the snakes and have discussed this with many zoos who also use them to great effect.

Again what I am saying is tongs are a last resort tool, if you need to use them then the tool should be the most humane available.....if not then they should be banned!

I believe they may have been midwest, (not GG) but definatly dont quote me, I would have to ask him again.

As I said before, it is not nec the width or whether the tong edge is metal or not - When an animal is firmly restrained at a fixed point and panics, ithere is a chance that it can twist back violently, and break their back.

This is where the individual keeper must weigh up their will to do no harm, with the level of percieved risk to themselves, and make their own decision.

Whatever ppls opinions are, Im sure we can all agree that tongs can be great for moving things around, and grabbing or moving stuff out of tanks etc.

 

[elapid@]

So are you 100% sure that clamping down on that snake hasnt broken or crushed anything?

doesn't take much to fracture . i would bet my bottom dallor they have, they are my last option, yes i have used one a couple of times but i hardly had any presure on the little critter and it was still moving through the grip strait into a bag. I dont care if any one doesnt like my methods cause at the end of the day im doing a goodthing and i havent hurt one snake in my whole entire life and im just an angle dont do any thing wrong:evil:

 

[waruikazi]

So are you 100% sure that clamping down on that snake hasnt broken or crushed anything?

If this question is aimed at me no i'm not sure that is didn't damage the snake but i am confident it didn't do any permanent damage or cause any major injury. That snake was caught without hooks, jiggers or tongs. The tongs were only used for the photo shoot because it was the only way to safely take a photo like that.

 

[Vincent]

i belive anyone that HAS to use them to catch a wild snake is NOT competent and should not be relocating snakes in the first place. Simple.

I have to agree with Rob here. I believe tongs ( Of any type ) have brought people, without the necessary handling ability and dangerous snakes together. In earlier times these people would never have considered messing with these animals.

But, on the other side of the fence, as Dave says, some competent handlers use them as well these days. Maybe Rob's right again with his opinion on this matter.

I guess i'm old fashioned and a purist in my belief that if you cant catch a snake without tongs, you shouldnt be near it in the first place. Regardless if tongs do damage or not. Maybe blokes like Rob and myself, plus others with similiar views are dinosaurs, out of touch with todays opinions.

I can live with that.

 

[redbellybite]

I have to agree with Rob here. I believe tongs ( Of any type ) have brought people, without the necessary handling ability and dangerous snakes together. In earlier times these people would never have considered messing with these animals.

But, on the other side of the fence, as Dave says, some competent handlers use them as well these days. Maybe Rob's right again with his opinion on this matter.

I guess i'm old fashioned and a purist in my belief that if you cant catch a snake without tongs, you shouldnt be near it in the first place. Regardless if tongs do damage or not. Maybe blokes like Rob and myself, plus others with similiar views are dinosaurs, out of touch with todays opinions.

I can live with that.

obviously I am one of the JURASSIC members too then

 

[pythons73]

This threat could go on for days,theres ppl on both sides of the fence here,If you do use these tongs or vice-versa you cannot change someones mind over night.

 

[solar 17]

tongs or not

pythons 73...l agree this thread is like religion and capitol punishment....everybody has turned up with a firm opinion on the subject and that aint going change....overnight anyway....solar 17 [Baden]