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To dismiss the possibility of Ghosts or the paranormal is limiting ones own ability to see beyond ones own self imposed box. from the beginning of recorded history man has described things beyond the obvious. Every culture has descriptions of ghosts and other worldly beings that go far beyond the physiological fear of the unknown. If it cant be proven by contemporary science then a lot of people will dismiss it as impossible, including a lot of highly intelligent people. This form of imposed box of logic helps keep people comfortable so it is no surprise that it is easier to dismiss than consider the alternative. I have seen on more than one occasion things that many would consider impossible or ludicrous and while i have no explanation for those events does not mean it was not real so by reasonable logic I would not dismiss it. The world is an amazing place and how boring it would be (and extremely arrogant) if we believed we knew it all.
Kam

In defence of science, it's a bit of a myth that science closes minds, or that scientists have closed minds. In my opinion the best scientists are open-minded. There are cases where closed-minded scientists have delayed scientific progress for years. Plate tectonics took around 40 years to be accepted as a theory. Medical science didn't take quite that long to accept that helicobacter pylori caused stomach ulcers, but it certainly took longer than it should have. A good scientist is sceptical, but once the evidence is there and has withstood many tests, he or she has to accept the evidence, no matter how radical or inconvenient it might be. The trick is, to paraphrase a line from Buffy, not to be so open-minded your whole brain falls out.

Scientists would accept the existence of ghosts if there was evidence of a scientific standard to support it. As far as I'm aware - and please do correct me if I'm wrong - there has been no such evidence. All sightings have alternative explanations that, on the balance of probabilities, are more likely. This photo, although it's undoubtedly cool, has other, more likely explanations that have been mentioned already.

The world is an amazing place. I started a science degree this year and some of the stuff I've been learning about has bowled me over with how astounding it is - and it's all the more astounding because it's demonstrably true. Science certainly doesn't know everything. I don't think any scientist could or would say that, or they'd all give up and go home. We're at the point where we know enough to realise how much we don't know - a very exciting prospect! Some might see science as being limiting, but without science there are plenty of things we wouldn't know at all.
 
In defence of science, it's a bit of a myth that science closes minds, or that scientists have closed minds. In my opinion the best scientists are open-minded. There are cases where closed-minded scientists have delayed scientific progress for years. Plate tectonics took around 40 years to be accepted as a theory. Medical science didn't take quite that long to accept that helicobacter pylori caused stomach ulcers, but it certainly took longer than it should have. A good scientist is sceptical, but once the evidence is there and has withstood many tests, he or she has to accept the evidence, no matter how radical or inconvenient it might be. The trick is, to paraphrase a line from Buffy, not to be so open-minded your whole brain falls out.

Scientists would accept the existence of ghosts if there was evidence of a scientific standard to support it. As far as I'm aware - and please do correct me if I'm wrong - there has been no such evidence. All sightings have alternative explanations that, on the balance of probabilities, are more likely. This photo, although it's undoubtedly cool, has other, more likely explanations that have been mentioned already.

The world is an amazing place. I started a science degree this year and some of the stuff I've been learning about has bowled me over with how astounding it is - and it's all the more astounding because it's demonstrably true. Science certainly doesn't know everything. I don't think any scientist could or would say that, or they'd all give up and go home. We're at the point where we know enough to realise how much we don't know - a very exciting prospect! Some might see science as being limiting, but without science there are plenty of things we wouldn't know at all.
Buffy is not a reliable source as she dated a vampire and while it seems to be all the rage at the mo the point remains she was supposed to be a slayer! Which means impaling not being impaled (conflict of interest).
I think that you may have misunderstood my post as I do not think science is narrow minded or limited, quite the contrary. Science needs to be open to the infinite possibilities of the unknown or as you pointed out it would not and could not advance forward. My point was that people use science in it's currently limited scope of information to remain in there comfort box. There is also the problem of scientist not agreeing or the current government bodies promoting one view supported by (well paid) scientist and their apparent findings that are not necessarily supported the scientific community as a whole. despite fluoride being a poison (yes it's poisonous and illegal in several countries also rat poison in china) and numerous scientist and doctors saying it is highly toxic the gov had it's own scientist support it's introduction into the water ways. And now the public believe it to be safe based on scientific fact. And before we get of topic with people saying conspiracy theorist (and when did questioning dishonest behavior become a bad thing) and getting of topic, go out and do the research as being spoon fed is for infants. Science can not be proven only supported by the information available to conclude a probable outcome this can be seen by scientist deciding that one lot of information (previously considered facts) is incomplete and incorrect or misidentified etc. We are humans and subject to mistakes (and delusions of grandeur), it is only natural that we can not have an definite answer to everything. The unknown is what drives scientific discovery and therefore by that very reason ghost etc should not be dismissed only pursued. An interesting point to consider, a 100 years ago in asia a rock was proven to be a rock by being there as a rock and not having it's molecular structure broken down to prove it a rock. Yet eastern religion tried to understand it's existence with evidence. yet western man tried to prove the rocks existence buy scientific evidence (despite the obvious - it's a rock) yet based it's religious ideas on blind faith.

Kam
 
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despite fluoride being a poison (yes it's poisonous and illegal in several countries also rat poison in china) and numerous scientist and doctors saying it is highly toxic the gov had it's own scientist support it's introduction into the water ways. And now the public believe it to be safe based on scientific fact.

Which waterways ?
Banging on about fluoride being a toxic poison is B+ fear mongering at best...table salt is a deadly poison as well. Did government hire some puppet scientists to get that on our tables... or is it part of a NWO scheme.


When there is a shred of evidence for "ghosts" maybe someone should pursue it, its like suggesting a conservation group needs to be set up for bigfoot or unicorns you know because they could exist and geez they are hard to find so they might be on the verge of extinction :lol:.

So until evidence for unicorns or ghosts come to light i would rather science stuck with pursuing real world problems... things like cancer, HIV...climate change.
 
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Which waterways ?
Banging on about fluoride being a toxic poison is B+ fear mongering at best...table salt is a deadly poison as well. Did government hire some puppet scientists to get that on our tables... or is it part of a NWO scheme.


When there is a shred of evidence for "ghosts" maybe someone should pursue it, its like suggesting a conservation group needs to be set up for bigfoot or unicorns you know because they could exist and geez they are hard to find so they might be on the verge of extinction :lol:.

So until evidence for unicorns or ghosts come to light i would rather science stuck with pursuing real world problems... things like cancer, HIV...climate change.

Oh ignorance is bliss, please the debate is not on fluoride as I said do your own research before screaming fear mongering (obviously you hadn't as apparently you did not know it's put in our drinking water, which is common knowledge). Anything in excess is toxic so the table salt comment is childish and unwarranted science tells us that fluoride (a bi-product of aluminum manufacture) has a higher toxicity than lead. Believe whatever you choose to believe but if you wish to discuss please keep your input in a non aggressive and intelligent manner. If scientist wish to pursue the possibility of life on mars or ponder upon string theory or even yes the phenomenon commonly called ghosts is their prerogative. Go back read my point about what I said as there is nothing in there about what scientist should or should not study. I enjoy the intellectual stimulation of intelligent discussion your retort did nothing for me, sorry but this thread obviously is not for you. ;)
 
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Climate change :lol: The only way to deal with climate change is to accept it. We're only human, it's not as if we can change anything globally. We can make things better, but we can't alter the weather or the elements ;) Let's get back to talking about ghosts :D
 
Kam333 - I have enough evidence to start an anti-anti-fluoride campaign....

The positives well outweigh the negatives.

Generally, however, I find people who believe in ghosts, paranormal activities etc - often believe that fluoride is a form government control and that JFK was a conspiracy... Plus we didn't land on the moon....

Do you fall in to that category?
 
Climate change :lol: The only way to deal with climate change is to accept it. We're only human, it's not as if we can change anything globally. We can make things better, but we can't alter the weather or the elements ;) Let's get back to talking about ghosts :D

Thought it was getting a bit hot in this thread,bloody climate change!
 
Kam333 - I have enough evidence to start an anti-anti-fluoride campaign....

The positives well outweigh the negatives.

Generally, however, I find people who believe in ghosts, paranormal activities etc - often believe that fluoride is a form government control and that JFK was a conspiracy... Plus we didn't land on the moon....

Do you fall in to that category?

Was this supposed to be derogatory ? I am not here to discuss my opinions on past or present possibilities or impossibilities of conspiracies. As stated previously and is being proven by the very post you just made people are divided in opinion including scientists I just used fluoride as an example, as stated previously:rolleyes: this is not about fluoride.( if you feel the need start a new thread).
It is about the genuine discussion on the possibility of ghosts, if you cant consider the possibility or have nothing of value to add then dont bother.
 
.. Plus we didn't land on the moon....

We what????? :)

squirrel-fake-moon-landing-proof.jpg
 
Well all i can add is having travelled to Indonesia , mainly to a little island just off the coast of bali nusa lembongan, i can honestly say i have kept an open mind to all this ghost stuff and the afterlife , i mean the people who have been to bali and seen the hindu way of life close up and made close friends with them will know what im talking about.

I have been lucky enough to go to alot of their ceremonies including one of the big public cremations (its only a small island and with only a small population and not much money, they bury the deceased and wait until their is enough people to be cremated and put on a massive ceremony ) our friend was in the cremation so we decided to make the trip over for it . I got to take part in the part where they put all the bones into a big bamboo pyramid sorta thing and have a few people up the top singing and a whole heap of us went underneath it and carried it up and down the main street bouncing it up and down and spinning around in circles it was a pretty different experience.

They believe so much in spirits and all that stuff that they do daily offerings to the gods and spirits and every house or building has to have a mini temple thing to place the offerings , they don't let their new born children touch the ground for about the first 6 months i think it is because thats where the bad spirits are

im not at all saying that i believe all this sorta stuff just that having the experiences ive had over there and i haven't even really scratched the surface but it has definitely made me keep an open mind about it all
 
Oh ignorance is bliss, please the debate is not on fluoride as I said do your own research before screaming fear mongering (obviously you hadn't as apparently you did not know it's put in our drinking water, which is common knowledge). Anything in excess is toxic so the table salt comment is childish and unwarranted science tells us that fluoride (a bi-product of aluminum manufacture) has a higher toxicity than lead. Believe whatever you choose to believe but if you wish to discuss please keep your input in a non aggressive and intelligent manner. If scientist wish to pursue the possibility of life on mars or ponder upon string theory or even yes the phenomenon commonly called ghosts is their prerogative. Go back read my point about what I said as there is nothing in there about what scientist should or should not study. I enjoy the intellectual stimulation of intelligent discussion your retort did nothing for me, sorry but this thread obviously is not for you. ;)

Some nice assumptions on what i know.
Again ill ask "which waterways?" are you referring to?
Ive only taken a couple or marine biology classes so maybe you have some deeper knowledge on what a waterway is?

By all means, show me a credible reference to the dangers of fluoride in tap water at current levels. To be clear, credible is say, something publish in a peer reviewed journal. Not something from a pseudo-science website.

Right now i can pretty much give the same scary buzzwords for table-salt as you put out there for fluoride.
Even coma is listed as a risk related to salt exposure, should we avoid salt in all concentrations because of this ?

I love it when someone makes out like the scientific community is divided on an issue :lol: usually they cant substantiate the claim, then its onto the next step "the government is hiding it, but dang i swear the evidence is there, they just be hiding it bubba". Or... "Science got it wrong before, so my baseless theory could be true" and it continues.... on and on :D Which path will you take, im guessing not the first life line, of providing some proof.
 
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Some nice assumptions on what i know.
Again ill ask "which waterways?" are you referring to?
Ive only taken a couple or marine biology classes so maybe you have some deeper knowledge on what a waterway is?

By all means, show me a credible reference to the dangers of fluoride in tap water at current levels. To be clear, credible is say, something publish in a peer reviewed journal. Not something from a pseudo-science website.

Right now i can pretty much give the same scary buzzwords for table-salt as you put out there for fluoride.
Even coma is listed as a risk related to salt exposure, should we avoid salt in all concentrations because of this ?

I love it when someone makes out like the scientific community is divided on an issue :lol: usually they cant substantiate the claim, then its onto the next step "the government is hiding it, but dang i swear the evidence is there, they just be hiding it bubba". Or... "Science got it wrong before, so my baseless theory could be true" and it continues.... on and on :D Which path will you take, im guessing not the first life line, of providing some proof.

And still no credible argument about ghosts ? I could bite and this could go on for ever and ever, could be fun but not in this thread. Babble babble some of you might know the MM song. Anyway start a new thread if you so please and leave this to the ghosts ;) .
 
And still no credible argument about ghosts ? I could bite and this could go on for ever and ever, could be fun but not in this thread. Babble babble some of you might know the MM song. Anyway start a new thread if you so please and leave this to the ghosts ;) .

Im not aware of any credible arguments for ghosts anymore than i have any for unicorns or fluoride boogieman.

If you want to start a thread for the evidence supporting these today-tonight style pseudoscience claims you spout on fluoride go for ya life. Incredible claims require incredible evidence, if you don't have any, no sweat.. i didn't expect you would.
 
Im not aware of any credible arguments for ghosts anymore than i have any for unicorns or fluoride boogieman.

If you want to start a thread for the evidence supporting these today-tonight style pseudoscience claims you spout on fluoride go for ya life. Incredible claims require incredible evidence, if you don't have any, no sweat.. i didn't expect you would.

Ok, thats IT! . . After school, behind the shelter sheds. . .your in for it buddy! :evil:
 
What I can't believe, Kam333 is that you've never watched a show by Penn and Teller called BS... Because basically, that's what you're 'spouting' off...

You would like people to believe, or at least be open minded to believe - I don't think anyone here is so narrow minded that they wouldn't believe with evidence (oh, wait, yes, there's MILLIONS of people who believe ghosts exist without evidence - that's the narrow mind we're talking about).

Personally... I'D LOVE ghosts to be real... I'd spend days playing poker with my grandma and grandpa who I loved dearly and would like to win my $20 back off them... TYhey scammed me... I'd love to play footy with my ghost dog (named Radar after the M*A*S*H character)...

Ghosts would be super super cool... (that wasn't science speak).

However, my incredibly open mind (that wishes ghosts were real) has one limiting factor.... Evidence!

This photo, this thread, these people... Not one shred of evidence... And then.. on top of that there's conspiracy believers...

I strongly suggest you watch the aforementioned show - and even if you still think that what you believe is right (or wrong) it won't matter... You might have 'evidence' to back it up!

After school it is.... I'll be there....
 
What I can't believe, Kam333 is that you've never watched a show by Penn and Teller called BS... Because basically, that's what you're 'spouting' off...

You would like people to believe, or at least be open minded to believe - I don't think anyone here is so narrow minded that they wouldn't believe with evidence (oh, wait, yes, there's MILLIONS of people who believe ghosts exist without evidence - that's the narrow mind we're talking about).

Personally... I'D LOVE ghosts to be real... I'd spend days playing poker with my grandma and grandpa who I loved dearly and would like to win my $20 back off them... TYhey scammed me... I'd love to play footy with my ghost dog (named Radar after the M*A*S*H character)...

Ghosts would be super super cool... (that wasn't science speak).

However, my incredibly open mind (that wishes ghosts were real) has one limiting factor.... Evidence!

This photo, this thread, these people... Not one shred of evidence... And then.. on top of that there's conspiracy believers...

I strongly suggest you watch the aforementioned show - and even if you still think that what you believe is right (or wrong) it won't matter... You might have 'evidence' to back it up!

After school it is.... I'll be there....

Ok you and australis - Tag team. at the shelter sheds.

I used to enjoy Penn and Teller but they lost credibility with me when they tried arguing that cigarettes wont do you harm (oh hang on they must also be conspiracy theorists).

Maybe the whole ghost thing is viewed from a negative one point view instead of considering that there could be more than the horror movie style perspective.

And when did conspiracy theorist become a dirty word. . . all through history right up to todays news is filled with people in positions of power abusing it with misinformation for there own benefit.
 
Ok you and australis - Tag team. at the shelter sheds.

I used to enjoy Penn and Teller but they lost credibility with me when they tried arguing that cigarettes wont do you harm (oh hang on they must also be conspiracy theorists).

Maybe the whole ghost thing is viewed from a negative one point view instead of considering that there could be more than the horror movie style perspective.

And when did conspiracy theorist become a dirty word. . . all through history right up to todays news is filled with people in positions of power abusing it with misinformation for there own benefit.

They didn't say smoking would do you harm - they suggested second hand smoke was not as harmful as shown based on evidential tests...
 
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