Cruel or Not?

[HonestPirate]

Kobson:

Research.
Experience.
More Research
Knowledge.

They are your baby steps dude. Youtube is an entertainment medium. It's relevance to herpetology is at best a collection of videos of what NOT to do, interlaced with good people showing off their pets.

Youtube is the stripclub of herp research. Sure, there's a little eye candy, you see things warts and all; you THINK you are getting the real picture, and then you walk out of the place thinking you've seen all there is to see and you're an expert voyeur. But all you got was a glossy, fake, pretentious VERSION of the reality intentionally manufactured to serve the owner's purpose- to IMPRESS YOU. When it's time to get hitched or take your knowledge to the streets; you aren't going to go back there looking for a wife are you ?

 

[Bandit05]

I DISAGREE that its cruel to keep snakes in tubs. I personally keep mine in tanks but that is for my benefit not theirs. Do you think a snake in the wild sits in the sun for 12 hours a day as we subject them to 12 hours of lighting, or that they would thrive whilst constantly being watched. Many snakes stress being in a tank but are very content being tubbed and you would be suprised how little snakes move in the wild. As for being money hungry, unfortunately there are many like that in breeding of any animal but the majority take great care of their snakes, more so than the average pet snake keeper in fact, take a look at some of Colins pictures for example, you dont produce snakes of that quality without years of dedication and hard work, if you add up all the time, work, outlay on breeding snakes, tubs and other costings involved, you NEVER make money breeding them, it is a hobby ( large or small) that people enjoy doing and sharing with other like minded people, many snakes are given away if they have a fault ( the breeders wouldnt do that if they were money hungry) , plus breeders freely share many hours of their time with answering questions on how to care for and solving problems that arrive with the snakes they have sold. Colin has offered you some great advice as have many others on here, if you dont want to take it thats your choice but really what are you on here for

 

[Gecko :)]

I have to agree with Michael,.

Whilst we currently keep our womas in a tub type set up as first recommended.
We are now making the changes & moving them into a bigger setup.
Tubs are great & practical for hatchies / juvies,. but you guys are kidding yourself if you think the snake is just as happy in a tiny tub where it cant stretch out compared to a nice size enclosure for them to stretch out & explore,.
Not to mention unless you are standing there waiting for poo to come out & quickly clean it,. it is almost impossible for the snake to crap without laying in it,. I know I wouldnt appreciate that.

Looking at this guys setup he obviously doesnt care about keeping his cages clean,. yes I know he said it was cleaning day , big whoop,. why would you take a video before cleaning it up ? Yuck!

Dont get me wrong,. I know they will live in a plastic container without complaining, but I do believe it is cruel to keep bigger snakes in such a small space,.

This is obviously only my opinion but I dont agree with how snakebytes keep alot of their stuff.

It is battery,. & please dont tell me to do research, cos I have & a snake can get its own security if needed by providing multiple hides for them to utilize.

 

[Bandit05]

I couldnt keep my snakes in a tub for the same concerns you have Waterrat but have also seen some very overweight snakes kept in massive tanks but that were being fed within an inch of their lives by well meaning but unknowledgeable owners
the key to sucess
RESEARCH
RESEARCH
RESEARCH
it is not stupidity to ask a lot of questions but in not heeding the answers
oh and watch your snakes
Im amazed each day by how much my little guys teach me, what is right for one doesnt always work with the others

 

[DeadCricket]

Sorry guys, but I take exception to keeping snakes in very small containers. What is missing in the above statement is "exercise", which is impossible to perform in small confinement. Free movement, and lots of it, is necessary for muscle development (and maintenance) as well spinal mobility. I have seen with my own eyes snakes that were kept in small containers for 2 years and they were in poor conditions; retarded movement, jelly like muscle tone and general lethargy. Not all of them, but enough of them to put me of the idea of ever keeping snakes (except nor neonates of course) in small tubs.

I do agree with this but in my post I was referring to the way a lot of people think of snakes.

There was a thread a while back of some snakes kept in small, tiny tubs since hatching. So small they couldn't even uncoil, like being kept in a hide. This I do not agree with and I will take the time to mention that a jumpy ex breeder of mine who is around 6ft LOVES her nearly 6ft long tub. The opaque sides mean she doesn't feel constantly on guard. There are some pretty big tubs out there!

 

[Waterrat]

have also seen some very overweight snakes kept in massive tanks but that were being fed within an inch of their lives by well meaning but unknowledgeable owners

How true. Loving snakes and understanding them are two different things but you can't always tell this to the snake lovers.

 

[Reptilefreak95]

I believe it all comes down to the individuals preferances, i mean, sure, we all have our opinions, but that doesnt mean it is correct, and who's to say that keeping snakes out of their wild habitat isn't cruel in itself? i try to keep my snakes as happy as possible, and it works. i wouldn't keep my snakes in a tub just because i can't imagine they would be very happy in there. Sure they might be healthy, but thats another concept all together. sure u can have healthy snakes, but that doesnt mean they are happy or displaying normal behaviour. I agree with Bandit05 that watching them can teach you things that no book or person could. and to the people saying that Brian Barzcyk does the same thing and nobody asks this question about him, that is totally different, he is a business and majority of the snakes he has will be gone shortly after he breeds them. so it is totally different. It is all a matter of opinion.

 

[reaver]

I have no idea if its cruel or not but it seems like a very large sweeping statement to say its the same for all adult snakes.
I've also heard that some snakes are not as active as others and can be keep in smaller enclosures, particularly ball pythons, although they also said that just because you can keep ball pythons in small enclosures it doesn't mean all pythons can be keep in as small a space.
Out of curiosity I calculated approximatly how much time my snake(childrens) spends in and out of her hide(fyi she's keep in good sized enclosure thats more than big enough for her). I believe the amount of time she is active to be an exageration as she doesn't come out till a couple of hours after dark and is always tucked in before sunrise and I went with the assumtion that she is constantly active while I'm asleep. Also this is an average week, when she's in shed she'll hide sometimes up to a week and half without me seeing her.
She does come out during hot days but this is generally to move from the hot end to the cold end.
Hours in a week: 168
Day hours spent hiding: 84
Night hours spent digesting: 24
Total hours in hide: 108
Hours active(or out of her hide): 60 (approx. 36%)

 

[DeadCricket]

By keeping these animals out of their natural habitat I believe we have a duty to replicate an environment that provides for all their needs. That is why hides, tight, with a small entrance and plenty of them are essential. Whether this hide be a lovingly crafted fake rock with gold trimming and a regular colony of graceful butterflys or an old cereal box, I believe it serves exactly the same purpose in the snakes mind.

I myself am about 80% finished a diy 1800x600x600 enclosure with fake rock ruins etc that has taken me forever to craft. This enclosure is for my benefit though, I can't agree that my beloved costal will be any happier in there than in a tub the same size with hide, water, climb etc provided.

 

[kobson08]

sorry I thought I did answer it.. and without meaning to be rude when you have no experience keeping snakes (your words) or their husbandry how would you actually know whats cruel or not except what's seen with anthropomorphic eyes?

if your looking to learn about keeping reptiles the three books I suggested are good ones and much more informatve than watching most of the rubbish on youtube. cheers

I dont think your readying what im typing, the title of this thread was NOT a statement of my assumption. It was a questions. Cruel OR not? The purpose was to get everyone else opinion so i can have a better understanding. Dont understand why everyone is condemning me for make wrong assumptions when i havent made any yet. Never noticed this much negativity of other posts in this forum...

 

[Inkage]

I hate the kid in this video...And his hair.

 

[Herpaderpa]

I completely agree with waterrat.

Space and movement are important. I have observed every single one of my snakes using their perches in wait for a feed and directly after a feed. Not one feeds on the ground.
And it appears they use climbing to assist the movement of their food and they do not settle until the food is in a (for want of a better word) comfortable position. These are carpet pythons however, I am guessing strictly terrestrial snakes are not that keen on climbing lol. But I have no doubt that snakes do prefer to be able to move.
I can not imagine not providing my snakes with the ability to move around and climb. Even if it were in a tub, the tub would need to be large enough for movement and perching.

But there are people who only seek to provide the bare minimums to keep their animals alive... and there are others who truly care about the animals quality of life. I don't like the way the kid in the video keeps his animals. The enclosures don't look very secure, his reptile room is messy and everything has this dirty feel to it lol Size wise... I have seen worse.

 

[longqi]

I dont think your readying what im typing, the title of this thread was NOT a statement of my assumption. It was a questions. Cruel OR not? The purpose was to get everyone else opinion so i can have a better understanding. Dont understand why everyone is condemning me for make wrong assumptions when i havent made any yet. Never noticed this much negativity of other posts in this forum...

This can be a touchy subject so that is why some comments can get a bit over the top

10 years ago virtually no-one used tubs for snakes
It was really only the advent of the big American Snake Farms that started this craze
For breeders, tubs are brilliant in many ways as they make the utilisation of available space; cleaning and disease/pest control very simple
That is the reasons big breeders use them
Then snake 'Collectors' started using tubs for similar reasons and justify their use any way they can

There are a few snakes that dont move around much at ground level [various adders being prime examples]
These are often used as representative of all snakes and used to justify keeping any snake in a tub
The keeping of snakes such as Green Tree Snakes and other active arboreal species is not that common in Australia yet

We simply know nothing about how reptiles 'feel' about things
So it is virtually impossible to prove one way or another that using tubs could be 'cruel'

Only you can decide how you feel about it
After you have made your decision keep your snakes the way 'you' want to
That will be the right way for 'you' but possibly not for others

 

[waruikazi]

Kobson Colin did answer your question, the negative tone was probably from premise of this question that you posted. Suggesting that keepers with large collections do the bare minimum.

Goldmember as you can see i did state i have no experience in keeping snakes, hence the reason i posted the thread.To me the tubs seem too small for the reptiles content. From viewing many pictures on APS, everyone seems to have a big enough enclosure for the snake to actually roam around. Isnt the purpose of keeping snakes to provide a suitable enclosure to replicate their would be natural environment as much as possible as oppose to only maintaining an acceptable health level of the reptile?

I try to spend alot of time in the feild and read books and research papers. What you learn from this is that pythons spend alot of time in one small area, i watched one darwin carpet move in and out of a gap in the brick work of my parents house for one or two months before i managed to catch it. It moved less that 2ft in that whole time, but it had shelter and a food source so it didn't need to go anywhere and it is quite common to find the same wild python in the same spot as you did previously months apart. Gavin Bedford did a study on Darwin carpets and found that they would stay in the one sheltered area for 300 odd days.

That combined with the fact that nearly all species of python will grow, feed, breed and thrive in 'tubs' definately points toward the practice not being cruel.

 

[Herpaderpa]

The main thing I would suggest is that while pythons may not move much in the wild when they find a cozy spot... they had the opportunity to choose that spot. When kept in an overly small enclosure they have no choice.


Did you keep 24/7 surveillance on these wild snakes for months at a time?

I am guessing they still did leave and move and exercise. A python forced to coil its entire life is different to a python choosing a cozy spot for what ever reason a python might choose a cozy spot and in my mind doesn't justify cramped enclosures

 

[DeadCricket]

There seems to be a confusion about tub sizes. It is more than possible to buy very large stackable tubs. Even in excess of 6ft. The snakes that I do keep in tubs do have room to uncurl and climb. In fact ive seen spotted's kept in smaller enclosures than the tub I keep mine in. My jungles, whilst only young, do have room to climb and often do eat from a branch. My others don't seem so fond of eating from their branches, but thats their choice.

 

[notechistiger]

I am guessing they still did leave and move and exercise. A python forced to coil its entire life is different to a python choosing a cozy spot for what ever reason a python might choose a cozy spot and in my mind doesn't justify cramped enclosures

and that's fine, because that's your opinion People don't have to share it to keep beautiful, healthy pythons

 

[JasonL]

Sorry guys, but I take exception to keeping snakes in very small containers. What is missing in the above statement is "exercise", which is impossible to perform in small confinement. Free movement, and lots of it, is necessary for muscle development (and maintenance) as well spinal mobility. I have seen with my own eyes snakes that were kept in small containers for 2 years and they were in poor conditions; retarded movement, jelly like muscle tone and general lethargy. Not all of them, but enough of them to put me of the idea of ever keeping snakes (except nor neonates of course) in small tubs.

I agree, but unless you live in paradise as you do then you have the heating equation to weigh up (species depending), as larger enclosure require much more effort to heat correctly, so it can end up correct heating vs exercise, pick the lesser of two evils. If you keep splitting hairs of what cruel or not you will end up not keeping anything at all. If larger breeders keep far less animals in very large, well heated enclosures, then they will breed far less, reptile prices will rise as demand outweighs supply and poaching will increase ten fold. At the end of the day people need to be realistic to all aspects of the idea of keeping and understand all the pro's and cons that come with it. It's a cruel world in or out of captivity.

 

[AUSHERP]

Ive seen collections in worse state than that, Hes just a kid, he'll clean it all up later, given time and experience everyone gets better.

 

[waruikazi]

The main thing I would suggest is that while pythons may not move much in the wild when they find a cozy spot... they had the opportunity to choose that spot. When kept in an overly small enclosure they have no choice.


Did you keep 24/7 surveillance on these wild snakes for months at a time?

I am guessing they still did leave and move and exercise. A python forced to coil its entire life is different to a python choosing a cozy spot for what ever reason a python might choose a cozy spot and in my mind doesn't justify cramped enclosures

So you are going to ignore my experience and research from well respected herpetologists for your guesses? Interesting, do you have any experience or research to confirm that once they find an appropriate spot that they go out for excercise?

The Darwin in question was living 2ft above my TV unit in an open air lounge area, although not 24/7 surveilance i was watching it (when it was out) daily for probably 3 or 4 hours.

Making the argument that you have, comparing a captive scenario to the wild, is an argument for not keeping reptiles in cages at all. They have no choice on the cozy spots they get in any enclosure. Just take note that i never said that they shouldn't be able to move around, i think there is a minimum appropriate size. To me that size is 2/3rds the length of the snake (either high or long depending on species) and 1/3 deep.