Cruel or Not?

[Herpaderpa]

So you are going to ignore my experience and research from well respected herpetologists for your guesses? Interesting, do you have any experience or research to confirm that once they find an appropriate spot that they go out for excercise?

No need to be offended Waruikazi No one said I was ignoring your experience or research? :lol: I take all information provided on a forum with a grain of salt, I'm not going to blindly follow words on a forum from anyone I don't know, especially if they seem to argue for arguments sake I know from watching my own snakes that they do indeed move. Thats enough for me to know that I should keep my own snakes in enclosures/tubs where they can move. Pretty simple conclusion.

The Darwin in question was living 2ft above my TV unit in an open air lounge area, although not 24/7 surveilance i was watching it (when it was out) daily for probably 3 or 4 hours.

So it did come out and move then? Daily even?

Making the argument that you have, comparing a captive scenario to the wild, is an argument for not keeping reptiles in cages at all.

In fact waruikazi, that was your argument if you remember That wild pythons do not often move from a preferred spot, therefor implying it is ok to keep them in small containers. I personally don't see how that is justification.

They have no choice on the cozy spots they get in any enclosure.

Mine do, they get a choice of hides and perches. It is certainly more choice than the enclosure examples shown on a lot of american keepers youtube videos.

Just take note that i never said that they shouldn't be able to move around, i think there is a minimum appropriate size. To me that size is 2/3rds the length of the snake (either high or long depending on species) and 1/3 deep.

then I wonder why you are arguing. I agree.
I also think there is no difference between being kept in a tub and being kept in a fancy enclosure, if the tub is set up for the animals needs. And if keeping large numbers, tubs are going to save on cleaning, money and space. Of course this again depends on everyones particular point of view, but I feel carpets and any semi arboreal snake should be able to stretch out, raise their heads and climb and perch at will. A tub can provide all those things when set up right.
I also think any animal should have the opportunity to raise its head, at the very least, if it feels the need to. Again, a lot of american keepers keep their snakes in conditions so cramped, the animal coiled takes up more than 2/3 of the enclosure and there is no room at all for the animal to raise its head.
The youtube video that started this thread was questionable, but not horrible. I would call it barely satisfactory. It was really a bare minimum set up but I didn't feel like he should be shot for abuse... but maybe for his hair.

 

[GeckoJosh]

I do kinda worry how he is going to house his Green Anaconda when it gets bigger!!

Also after watching it a 2nd time I am surprised people aren't focussing on how dirty everything is, cleaning day? yeah right!!! I bet they are in that state 24/7

 

[Herpaderpa]

Yeah thats what I was thinking... everything looks... soiled. LOL

 

[Waterrat]

If nothing else, isn't that a major problem with keeping snakes in small tubs? Especially if "the cleaning day" is once a week. If there is any room for the snake to move, it can't avoid crawling in it's own faeces. Water spills????

 

[GeckoJosh]

If nothing else, isn't that a major problem with keeping snakes in small tubs? Especially if "the cleaning day" is once a week. If there is any room for the snake to move, it can't avoid crawling in it's own faeces. Water spills????

Water spills and faeces in such a small area is a recipe for a RI, personally I check my tubs a couple of times daily and clean as they need it, weekly cleaning isnt good enough imo

 

[DeadCricket]

Water spills and faeces in such a small area is a recipe for a RI, personally I check my tubs a couple of times daily and clean as they need it, weekly cleaning isnt good enough imo

I must admit this is easier with a smaller collection, I have a rough idea with my guys and gals are ready to make a mess

 

[cwebb]

When i put my bredli in his new much bigger tub, he spent the next 2 hours exploring it.. Loved it! So you can say they thrive in tubs, as long as the tub is big enough for the snake to fully stretch out and cruise around. mine spends his whole day either watching me do the dishes whilst continually climbing up and down off the two pieces of dowel through the top of his tub, or being an anti social loser in one of his hides, and making me think hes finally escaped i think he.loves his tub. i cant wait to get him into a proper vivarium when hes bigger, but until then it does not make sense for myself or most other snake owners to buy vivariums as their snake grows, when the option of a tub is available. one of my previous threads shows my snakes new tub, which is a great set up and a good example of how a tub can be. brian from BHB eat your heart out

 

[Waterrat]

When i put my bredli in his new much bigger tub, he spent the next 2 hours exploring it.. Loved it! i think he.loves his tub.

Did he tell you that? Ask him again in 3 weeks time. Leave the lid off and see how much he loves his tub.

 

[waruikazi]

No need to be offended Waruikazi No one said I was ignoring your experience or research? :lol: I take all information provided on a forum with a grain of salt, I'm not going to blindly follow words on a forum from anyone I don't know, especially if they seem to argue for arguments sake I know from watching my own snakes that they do indeed move. Thats enough for me to know that I should keep my own snakes in enclosures/tubs where they can move. Pretty simple conclusion.

I'm not offended. I did offer a reference for that information, so you don't need to take my word for it.

So it did come out and move then? Daily even?

It stuck it's head out of the brick work in an ambush position, i never saw it move it's whole body out of the hole. Which was pretty typical of Darwin carpets, i chose to use this one as an example because i watched it for months. I could have told you about all the others pythons i got on call outs where you would remove the snake from a small space, in a wall or roof etc, where you would find several sheded skins and mountains of poop.

In fact waruikazi, that was your argument if you remember That wild pythons do not often move from a preferred spot, therefor implying it is ok to keep them in small containers. I personally don't see how that is justification.

No that wasn't my argument, i was saying that if they don't need to move in any scenario then they generally won't. Ergo my argument is that if their needs are met they will thrive in tubs/racks and that is plainly evident from the results of our hobby.

Mine do, they get a choice of hides and perches. It is certainly more choice than the enclosure examples shown on a lot of american keepers youtube videos.

Excellent!

then I wonder why you are arguing. I agree.

I got involved with this thread because there was a lot of emotion and not a lot of what i would call unbiased information and i wanted to ad a little perspective without emotion. I hope i have managed to do that.

I also think there is no difference between being kept in a tub and being kept in a fancy enclosure, if the tub is set up for the animals needs. And if keeping large numbers, tubs are going to save on cleaning, money and space. Of course this again depends on everyones particular point of view, but I feel carpets and any semi arboreal snake should be able to stretch out, raise their heads and climb and perch at will. A tub can provide all those things when set up right.
I also think any animal should have the opportunity to raise its head, at the very least, if it feels the need to. Again, a lot of american keepers keep their snakes in conditions so cramped, the animal coiled takes up more than 2/3 of the enclosure and there is no room at all for the animal to raise its head.
The youtube video that started this thread was questionable, but not horrible. I would call it barely satisfactory. It was really a bare minimum set up but I didn't feel like he should be shot for abuse... but maybe for his hair.

I feel i need to put in an emoticon to show that i'm not emotional about this. :lol:

 

[Focus]

If nothing else, isn't that a major problem with keeping snakes in small tubs? Especially if "the cleaning day" is once a week. If there is any room for the snake to move, it can't avoid crawling in it's own faeces. Water spills????

I keep snakes in both large enclosures and in tubs. It is this very issue that makes me want to eventually move them all to enclosures. If I'm not home and they spill their water, the tub turns into a rainforest due to condensation within a very short period of time. It doesn't happen very often, but it's happened enough.

Just a personal choice though, if you're home to clean it ASAP there wouldn't be an issue I'd imagine.

In regards to proving cruelty, I'm relatively new to the hobby, but I remember reading that signs that a snake is not 'happy' are non-feeding, lack of growth & shedding difficulties. Admittedly, I've never had those issues when keeping snakes in tubs.

 

[Waterrat]

Good point Focus.
Happy, unhappy .... hmmmm, I am puzzled how some people perceive these and interpret reptilian behaviour. Many are of the opinion that because their snakes eat, crap, slough and breed, it's a sign of all good things and particularly breeding is a measure of success. That's fair enough, how else can we measure their well-being?
My exception is when people attribute this "success" to keeping snakes in small tubs and use the successful breeding as an argument that all is good and therefore their snakes must be happy snakes.
Consider this; snakes (and all other animals except for higher mammals) have only one purpose in life and that is to reproduce; pass their genes onto the next generation. Everything else (feeding, antipredatory behaviour, etc.) is just to survive. Given that, if you have a pair of anskes in a small plastic box for 2-3 years, they mature and reproduce .... hoo, haa!
Have they reproduced out of happiness because they feel so secure and cared for in their small tub or did they do it out of desperation? After all, that's all they lived for the last 2-3 years.
Please take this as a philosophical debate, not an attack of tubbers.

 

[kobson08]

When i put my bredli in his new much bigger tub, he spent the next 2 hours exploring it.. Loved it! So you can say they thrive in tubs, as long as the tub is big enough for the snake to fully stretch out and cruise around. mine spends his whole day either watching me do the dishes whilst continually climbing up and down off the two pieces of dowel through the top of his tub, or being an anti social loser in one of his hides, and making me think hes finally escaped i think he.loves his tub. i cant wait to get him into a proper vivarium when hes bigger, but until then it does not make sense for myself or most other snake owners to buy vivariums as their snake grows, when the option of a tub is available. one of my previous threads shows my snakes new tub, which is a great set up and a good example of how a tub can be. brian from BHB eat your heart out

Im personally not concerned with whether its a tub or a proper vivarium as long as the size is suitable for the snake to move and extend abit. Even if u get an a BIG enough bucket i dont see it being a issue. But vivarium look so exotic!

 

[DeadCricket]

Good point Focus.
Happy, unhappy .... hmmmm, I am puzzled how some people perceive these and interpret reptilian behaviour. Many are of the opinion that because their snakes eat, crap, slough and breed, it's a sign of all good things and particularly breeding is a measure of success. That's fair enough, how else can we measure their well-being?
My exception is when people attribute this "success" to keeping snakes in small tubs and use the successful breeding as an argument that all is good and therefore their snakes must be happy snakes.
Consider this; snakes (and all other animals except for higher mammals) have only one purpose in life and that is to reproduce; pass their genes onto the next generation. Everything else (feeding, antipredatory behaviour, etc.) is just to survive. Given that, if you have a pair of anskes in a small plastic box for 2-3 years, they mature and reproduce .... hoo, haa!
Have they reproduced out of happiness because they feel so secure and cared for in their small tub or did they do it out of desperation? After all, that's all they lived for the last 2-3 years.
Please take this as a philosophical debate, not an attack of tubbers.

It has been shown many times that the first thing our snakes, and many lizards, do is to stop eating when their needs aren't met. Shall we call a snake with all its needs generously met, happy? as we have no other indicator to their emotional state

Several indicators for a snake not being 'happy' would include; not eating, not shedding properly and not mating. Possibly another sign would be, never leaving its hide? Even my hatchies poke their head out sometimes.

 

[RustyViper]

Some of the tubs are a little on the small side, but my only concern is his hygiene practices, so many reptiles in one small room with all that stuff everywhere, sure he said its his cleaning day, and its natural that from time to time things get ahead of you, as for the snakes general health i was satisfied, my other concern was the two tubs containing het albino's that were on top of each other, i couldnt see any heating, and the bottom one didnt have enough ventilation for my liking. as he said ( there is an empty enclosure that use to have cockroaches in it, but i never cleaned it out ) come on if he is killing cockroaches, his doing something wrong. lol

 

[DeadCricket]

Some of the tubs are a little on the small side, but my only concern is his hygiene practices, so many reptiles in one small room with all that stuff everywhere, sure he said its his cleaning day, and its natural that from time to time things get ahead of you, as for the snakes general health i was satisfied, my other concern was the two tubs containing het albino's that were on top of each other, i couldnt see any heating, and the bottom one didnt have enough ventilation for my liking. as he said ( there is an empty enclosure that use to have cockroaches in it, but i never cleaned it out ) come on if he is killing cockroaches, his doing something wrong. lol

Could have been escapee woodies? I sometimes find a cockroach or cricket in my room sometimes

EDIT: Sometimes I say sometimes too many sometimes. But sometimes only sometimes

 

[RustyViper]

i agree i often find crickets roaming the house, its just the way he said it, lol

 

[cwebb]

Jeez. why do we even bother with some people on here. this is worse than facebook.

 

[DeadCricket]

Jeez. why do we even bother with some people on here. this is worse than facebook.

This is more a discussion of opinion. There is no real facts that can prove whether a snake is happy or otherwise. Both sides of the discussion need to be represented. I haven't actually watched the video and I think this has become about more than the video. At the end of the day, each keeper will keep their reptiles in the way that suits them best and, hopefully, suits the reptile best. I believe many good points have been made that favour both sides. This discussion has certainly been much more informative than anything I find on facebook

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Im personally not concerned with whether its a tub or a proper vivarium as long as the size is suitable for the snake to move and extend abit. Even if u get an a BIG enough bucket i dont see it being a issue. But vivarium look so exotic!

This is about the most objective assessment in this debate! Aesthetics would seem to me to be the criterion by which many people judge enclosure suitability, whereas my measure of suitability would be utility - both for me and the snake. I don't think your snake has any idea that the bits of plastic plant you put in the enclosure are meant to simulate the natural environment - if you use those things you're doing it for your pleasure, not the snake's. (Nothing wrong with that by the way...) Please note I never suggested that large snakes should be jammed into small tubs - an element of common sense needs to apply here. If you're living in an environment where there are fewer constraints on keeping snakes outside, or in large indoor enclosures, then that's probably good for the snake and for the keeper. Don't overlook the fact that many keepers in other parts of the world live in places where they have to manage heating very carefully for many months of the year. Large enclosures cost a mint to heat sufficiently - tubs are a very secure environment for reptiles in those places, and it could add hugely to the keeper's costs (and jeopardise the health of the reptiles) to accommodate them any other way.

I've said many times here that I envy Waterrat's ability to keep his GTPs in outdoor enclosures in his garden (and I'll try and set up a managed environment down here on the mid north coast of NSW sometime soon...) but the good fortune for him and his animals is that he lives in the tropics - out of necessity mine are housed in melamine enclosures just now. Does that mean I shouldn't keep tropical species in a sub-tropical area?

We all need to realise that there are many ways to skin a cat (old taxidermists saying )... and anyway, I think this argument is far better spent considering the lives of active lizards in captivity, rather wasted on snakes in my opinion (there's that phrase again!). What about active, intelligent hunters like monitors and dragons - surely these are more worthy of consideration when it comes to enclosure space, daily stimulation and environmental enrichment?

Jamie

 

[DeadCricket]

This is about the most objective assessment in this debate! Aesthetics would seem to me to be the criterion by which many people judge enclosure suitability, whereas my measure of suitability would be utility - both for me and the snake. I don't think your snake has any idea that the bits of plastic plant you put in the enclosure are meant to simulate the natural environment - if you use those things you're doing it for your pleasure, not the snake's. (Nothing wrong with that by the way...) Please note I never suggested that large snakes should be jammed into small tubs - an element of common sense needs to apply here. If you're living in an environment where there are fewer constraints on keeping snakes outside, or in large indoor enclosures, then that's probably good for the snake and for the keeper. Don't overlook the fact that many keepers in other parts of the world live in places where they have to manage heating very carefully for many months of the year. Large enclosures cost a mint to heat sufficiently - tubs are a very secure environment for reptiles in those places, and it could add hugely to the keeper's costs (and jeopardise the health of the reptiles) to accommodate them any other way.

I've said many times here that I envy Waterrat's ability to keep his GTPs in outdoor enclosures in his garden (and I'll try and set up a managed environment down here on the mid north coast of NSW sometime soon...) but the good fortune for him and his animals is that he lives in the tropics - out of necessity mine are housed in melamine enclosures just now. Does that mean I shouldn't keep tropical species in a sub-tropical area?

We all need to realise that there are many ways to skin a cat (old taxidermists saying )... and anyway, I think this argument is far better spent considering the lives of active lizards in captivity, rather wasted on snakes in my opinion (there's that phrase again!). What about active, intelligent hunters like monitors and dragons - surely these are more worthy of consideration when it comes to enclosure space, daily stimulation and environmental enrichment?

Jamie

I agree that lizards/dragons/monitors etc should be kept in larger areas. Whilst it can be recommended that a snake have an enclosure thats longest dimension is 3/4 of the snakes length, you certainly cannot keep a lizard in the same space.