Cruel or Not?

[kobson08]

I saw this video off youtube, of a guy showing his reptile room mainly pythons, i just think that what he houses them in are way too small, but he seems to think that their fine based on his comments to comments left by viewers.
Have a look, ive never kept pythons and he said that the 'psychology of pythons are different to ppl, therefore its not cruel'......

MEGA AWESOME UPDATE/ Reptile Room - YouTube

 

[GeckoJosh]

Kobson, I think you need to learn how snakes are kept in captivity before making assumptions

Although his reptile room is a mess lol and the tubs etc are on the small side all the snakes appear to be more or less healthy

Have a look at Snakebytes.tv on utube, he is one of the largest breeders in the US and his tubs aren't any bigger

 

[Ricochet]

Don't know about the size of the containers, but I'd be more worried about the heating. Unless he had heating at the back of his racking or recessed into his shelves I can't see how he could be maintaining temperatures as there was no visible heat cords or mats. His Herp room was a bit of a shambles.

All in all his snakes did appear healthy although he did mention losing a few critters earlier in the vid. The containers did appear small, but since I have no experience in this I can't offer a viable comment.

 

[GeckoJosh]

Don't know about the size of the containers, but I'd be more worried about the heating. Unless he had heating at the back of his racking or recessed into his shelves I can't see how he could be maintaining temperatures as there was no visible heat cords or mats. His Herp room was a bit of a shambles.

All in all his snakes did appear healthy although he did mention losing a few critters earlier in the vid. The containers did appear small, but since I have no experience in this I can't offer a viable comment.

Racks generally have heat cords recessed into the shelves

 

[Morelia4life]

I don't think it is cruel but I don't think the snakes are truly happy either. IMO, most people that have racks upon racks upon racks of snakes don't really care about the reptiles any more...all they care about is $$$$$. Most of the large scale breeders breed only ball pythons though so. If people want to do that to their snakes than let them. When people start caring about money more than they do their reptiles.... it is time to get out of the hobby/business.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I don't think it is cruel but I don't think the snakes are truly happy either. IMO, most people that have racks upon racks upon racks of snakes don't really care about the reptiles any more...all they care about is $$$$$. Most of the large scale breeders breed only ball pythons though so. If people want to do that to their snakes than let them. When people start caring about money more than they do their reptiles.... it is time to get out of the hobby/business.

Your last sentence is rather silly. Any community of animal-interested people is going to have the whole range of reasons for the interest - whether it be money, technical, biological or whatever... The hobby/business needs all of them, the ones you target are probably those who make the biggest number of animals available to the trade, so they have their place, along with those who contribute technical knowledge and all the other stuff.

Jamie

 

[waruikazi]

If you keep and breed enough animals you are going to lose a few eventually. Doesn't necessarily make your keeping practices bad.

Don't know about the size of the containers, but I'd be more worried about the heating. Unless he had heating at the back of his racking or recessed into his shelves I can't see how he could be maintaining temperatures as there was no visible heat cords or mats. His Herp room was a bit of a shambles.

All in all his snakes did appear healthy although he did mention losing a few critters earlier in the vid. The containers did appear small, but since I have no experience in this I can't offer a viable comment.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

If you keep and breed enough animals you are going to lose a few eventually. Doesn't necessarily make your keeping practices bad.

Spot on Gordo. We need to understand that animals die for many reasons. We're used to having our critters living fairly predictable lives, and when one dies we automatically look for some external reason for the death, which may have been unavoidable anyway. Even the best of us can't predict the future of our animals - good care is simply only one factor among many that contribute to a long and healthy life.

Jamie

 

[kobson08]

Kobson, I think you need to learn how snakes are kept in captivity before making assumptions

Although his reptile room is a mess lol and the tubs etc are on the small side all the snakes appear to be more or less healthy

Have a look at Snakebytes.tv on utube, he is one of the largest breeders in the US and his tubs aren't any bigger

Goldmember as you can see i did state i have no experience in keeping snakes, hence the reason i posted the thread.To me the tubs seem too small for the reptiles content. From viewing many pictures on APS, everyone seems to have a big enough enclosure for the snake to actually roam around. Isnt the purpose of keeping snakes to provide a suitable enclosure to replicate their would be natural environment as much as possible as oppose to only maintaining an acceptable health level of the reptile?

 

[Tassie97]

what is the point of keeping reptiles if you cant see them?!? i prefer vivarium's. tubs are ok for hatchies but anacondas , seriously? just my opinion

 

[snakeluvver]

what is the point of keeping reptiles if you cant see them?!? i prefer vivarium's. tubs are ok for hatchies but anacondas , seriously? just my opinion

I think tubs are obviously good for breeding, and I havent watched the video so I dont know if theyre breeding reptiles or pets. I'd definately keep an adult reptile "pet" in a vivarium if you're keeping it for private use.

 

[GeckoJosh]

Goldmember as you can see i did state i have no experience in keeping snakes, hence the reason i posted the thread.To me the tubs seem too small for the reptiles content. From viewing many pictures on APS, everyone seems to have a big enough enclosure for the snake to actually roam around. Isnt the purpose of keeping snakes to provide a suitable enclosure to replicate their would be natural environment as much as possible as oppose to only maintaining an acceptable health level of the reptile?

Im not even going to bother

 

[notechistiger]

You don't have any experience on this topic, I don't understand why you're arguing about it. Snakes thrive in tubs. Snakes thrive in beautiful enclosures that match their environment. Only difference it makes is a pretty sight for the owner.

 

[Colin]

kobson as goldmember stated you would be better off doing some research on husbandry & keeping reptiles in captivity since you said yourself you have no experience keeping snakes. In your other thread when you first joined the site this month you also say you dont have a reptile licence yet.

reptiles can thrive in different types and size enclosures or tubs as long as they have sufficent heating and access to a hotter and cooler area, water, a hide and food. Some reptiles actually do better in smaller sized enclosures while other may do better in larger ones. All reptiles are individuals and although we can make generalisations about a particular species and their husbandry theres always exceptions. Anthropomorphism is any attribution of human characteristics (or characteristics assumed to belong only to humans) to animals. and what people think makes a snake "happy" is really what makes the person happy and what one person may see as cruel may not be seen the same by another person. Its very easy to make incorrect assumptions and judge others when you dont know enough about them or the subject your discussing.

If you are looking to learn about reptiles my suggestion is to turn off youtube for a start. theres some great stuff on there but probably way more rubbish. I suggest some books such as Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons or Keeping and Breeding Australian Lizards edited by Mike Swan or Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity by John Weigel. And go through some of the threads on forums like this one.


Please also have a look at the rules on this site Site Rules - Aussie Pythons & Snakes

 

[kobson08]

kobson as goldmember stated you would be better off doing some research on husbandry & keeping reptiles in captivity since you said yourself you have no experience keeping snakes. In your other thread when you first joined the site this month you also say you dont have a reptile licence yet.

reptiles can thrive in different types and size enclosures or tubs as long as they have sufficent heating and access to a hotter and cooler area, water, a hide and food. Some reptiles actually do better in smaller sized enclosures while other may do better in larger ones. All reptiles are individuals and although we can make generalisations about a particular species and their husbandry theres always exceptions. Anthropomorphism is any attribution of human characteristics (or characteristics assumed to belong only to humans) to animals. and what people think makes a snake "happy" is really what makes the person happy and what one person may see as cruel may not be seen the same by another person. Its very easy to make incorrect assumptions and judge others when you dont know enough about them or the subject your discussing.

If you are looking to learn about reptiles my suggestion is to turn off youtube for a start. theres some great stuff on there but probably way more rubbish. I suggest some books such as Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons or Keeping and Breeding Australian Lizards edited by Mike Swan or Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity by John Weigel. And go through some of the threads on forums like this one.


Please also have a look at the rules on this site Site Rules - Aussie Pythons & Snakes

Colin, appreciate you explaining this to me, but the purpose of my thread was simply asking whether it was cruel or not. It was merely a question asking for everyone elses opinion, hence the ?.

 

[DeadCricket]

In my opinion there are really only a couple of reasons that a snake wants to move; keeping correct temperature, food, mating, fleeing or to curiosity.

With this in mind, a tub is a fine enclosure for a snake. I've seen people take their young hatchie for a ' walk' on the grass, a good ol' stretch. Now whilst humans would think this is a great idea, I would bet my bottom dollar that snake was TERRIFIED of being out in the open and vulnerable to so many predators.

If in the future you do get some reptiles, try to keep in mind that your snake doesn't really want to uncoil and your dragon doesn't really want to move off their warm spot, they are just tolerating you

 

[Morelia4life]

Your last sentence is rather silly. Any community of animal-interested people is going to have the whole range of reasons for the interest - whether it be money, technical, biological or whatever... The hobby/business needs all of them, the ones you target are probably those who make the biggest number of animals available to the trade, so they have their place, along with those who contribute technical knowledge and all the other stuff.

Jamie

Why is my last sentence silly? People who care more about the money than the reptiles they are selling don't need to be selling reptiles. That is just the way I feel about it. It is fine if you make money on the side from selling animals but if your main focus is just breeding and than selling animals than I don't feel it is right. When you start cutting corners and just barely giving your animals what they need in order to save money than it is time to get out. When all you can think about is money and you no longer think about the well being of your animals than it is time to get out.

If you keep a freaking 15 foot snake in a little 7 or 8 foot tub, that doesn't really show true care for the animal. That is just my opinion. If you truly care about your animals than you WILL provide them with the best care that you can and not worry about getting something cheap just to make a profit. When I see all these Youtube videos of these large scale breeders and they have 50,000 snakes and they are all in rack systems with nothing but a water bowl, to me that shows that they don't really care about the animals but simply money. That is just the way I look at things and that is my opinion.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

OK, you've said in several places that this is just your opinion. That's about it in a nutshell. You've also said several times that "it's time to get out"... time for who to get out - you because you don't like it, or the keeper who isn't managing his/her animals according to your standards?

As I said, there are MANY reasons for keeping snakes - for some it's a hobby, for some it's a business. One is just as legit as the other. As long as the animals in both camps are clean and healthy (since rack systems were introduced the number of surviving hatchies has skyrocketed, and health and parasite management problems have plummeted) I don't think you have grounds to complain.

A "freaking 15 foot snake" would probably live very happily in a space smaller than 7 or 8 feet in the wild if it didn't have to move to thermoregulate and get food. Provide the correct temps and supply food at the door and it would probably stay there of it's own accord for very long periods of time. Pythons, by nature, are secretive animals which usually live in confined spaces except when seeking food and warmth.

Jamie

 

[Colin]

Colin, appreciate you explaining this to me, but the purpose of my thread was simply asking whether it was cruel or not. It was merely a question asking for everyone elses opinion, hence the ?.

sorry I thought I did answer it.. and without meaning to be rude when you have no experience keeping snakes (your words) or their husbandry how would you actually know whats cruel or not except what's seen with anthropomorphic eyes?

if your looking to learn about keeping reptiles the three books I suggested are good ones and much more informatve than watching most of the rubbish on youtube. cheers

reptiles can thrive in different types and size enclosures or tubs as long as they have sufficent heating and access to a hotter and cooler area, water, a hide and food. Some reptiles actually do better in smaller sized enclosures while other may do better in larger ones. All reptiles are individuals and although we can make generalisations about a particular species and their husbandry theres always exceptions. Anthropomorphism is any attribution of human characteristics (or characteristics assumed to belong only to humans) to animals. and what people think makes a snake "happy" is really what makes the person happy and what one person may see as cruel may not be seen the same by another person. Its very easy to make incorrect assumptions and judge others when you dont know enough about them or the subject your discussing.

 

[Waterrat]

In my opinion there are really only a couple of reasons that a snake wants to move; keeping correct temperature, food, mating, fleeing or to curiosity.

Sorry guys, but I take exception to keeping snakes in very small containers. What is missing in the above statement is "exercise", which is impossible to perform in small confinement. Free movement, and lots of it, is necessary for muscle development (and maintenance) as well spinal mobility. I have seen with my own eyes snakes that were kept in small containers for 2 years and they were in poor conditions; retarded movement, jelly like muscle tone and general lethargy. Not all of them, but enough of them to put me of the idea of ever keeping snakes (except nor neonates of course) in small tubs.