OPMV defamation rumors

[Kersten]

Well that's very sad and I would imagine hard to deal with not only losing that animal, but having to put down the rest, especially on the basis of an OPMV consistent diagnosis. My condolences. Who ever said euthanising a collection was the only way to act on OPMV? im going into lock down until im satisfied that my collection is clean, how ever long that may take.

Hmm, I didn't say it was yourself or haymista who mentioned the further testing, in fact until this thread I didn't even know you were the two (one?) person/people involved. No, I believe it may have been Luke or Dave who mentioned it. It seemed logical that this would all be brought up again if there had indeed been more tests and the results confirmed.
so your saying we should just forget about it unless we can get an 100% confirmation?

A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.

I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not.

 

[seumas12345]

A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.

I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not.

Kersten I saw the post aswell. PilbaraPythons stated that they would pay whatever costs were necessary to have samples sent to the USA to be 100% sure if it was OPMV or not...

 

[arbok]

A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.

I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not. I apologise, i have my gaurd up a fair bit atm and shouldnt jump to conclusions.

to answer your questions, this thread is in response to the OPMV defamation thread.

 

[Kersten]

A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.

I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not. I apologise, i have my gaurd up a fair bit atm and shouldnt jump to conclusions.

to answer your questions, this thread is in response to the OPMV defamation thread.

No problem.

I see.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Kerston
I don’t think Haymista is claiming here that the Reptile supplied had OPMV, just that the histopathology report says consistent with OPMV not that it is OPMV.

Why do we believe it’s not OPMV? Simple, absolutely no history of sick or dead adult reptiles in Lukes collection from disease or virus ever.

Even carriers of OPMV eventually display symptoms after 8 months or so.
This doesn’t at all rule out another unknown retro virus however and if it is, you can not conclude it is in anyway as volatile as OPMV.

Should Luke destroy his entire collection solely on this report when the well known systematic signs of the disease are at complete odds with what is happening in his collection? Of course not.

Should he still lock down his collection and cease trading until he see what happens with his reptiles for the next two seasons? Yes he should.

Herpkeeper
I am so pleased you liked the way I handled my previous thread.

Regards Dave

 

[seumas12345]

Kerston
I don’t think Haymista is claiming here that the Reptile supplied had OPMV, just that the histopathology report says consistent with OPMV not that it is OPMV.

Why do we believe it’s not OPMV? Simple, absolutely no history of sick or dead adult reptiles in Lukes collection from disease or virus ever.

Even carriers of OPMV eventually display symptoms after 8 months or so.
This doesn’t at all rule out another unknown retro virus however and if it is, you can not conclude it is in anyway as volatile as OPMV.

Should Luke destroy his entire collection solely on this report when the well known systematic signs of the disease are at complete odds with what is happening in his collection? Of course not.

Should he still lock down his collection and cease trading until he see what happens with his reptiles for the next two seasons? Yes he should.

Herpkeeper
I am so pleased you liked the way I handled my previous thread.

Regards Dave

Why not just pay to get the tests done in America (just pointing it out coz that's what you said you were going to do)...?

 

[arbok]

Should he still lock down his collection and cease trading until he see what happens with his reptiles for the next two seasons? Yes he should. This of course raises the question, is he going to?

 

[Kersten]

Indeed, as I said Dave, I asked the question having made the assumption further testing had been done as previously mentioned. It seemed the logical conclusion given that the last thing we had heard was that more testing were in the pipeline.

To be honest, I don't really have a preference for that particular method of dealing wih OPMV - mainly because like most people who are in the safe position of watching from the sidelines and not having to make the decision, I've never given thought to how I myself would handle it. As I said, it just seems to be the general consensus here for whatever reason.

I'm sure Luke will make whatever decision he feels is best in order to deal with the problem, as have Haymista and Arbok. Given that as you mentioned, he hasn't had any cause for concern before this I'm sure he's just as shocked and upset as they are, with just as much reason.

 

[funcouple]

Kerston
I don’t think Haymista is claiming here that the Reptile supplied had OPMV, just that the histopathology report says consistent with OPMV not that it is OPMV.

Why do we believe it’s not OPMV? Simple, absolutely no history of sick or dead adult reptiles in Lukes collection from disease or virus ever.

Even carriers of OPMV eventually display symptoms after 8 months or so.
This doesn’t at all rule out another unknown retro virus however and if it is, you can not conclude it is in anyway as volatile as OPMV.

Should Luke destroy his entire collection solely on this report when the well known systematic signs of the disease are at complete odds with what is happening in his collection? Of course not.

Should he still lock down his collection and cease trading until he see what happens with his reptiles for the next two seasons? Yes he should.

Herpkeeper
I am so pleased you liked the way I handled my previous thread.

Regards Dave

Dave (pilbara pythons) please dont think this is an attack against you. ive copied and pasted this paragraph from snake rescue. http://www.snakerescue.com.au/index.php?link=opmv
Infected animals can carry the virus for many months with out symptoms and as a snake farmer in the US wrote “I lost 40 snakes to this virus” in a few weeks. There has also been cases of asymptomatic carriers where the animal can be a carrier of the virus without developing symptoms. The Australian Reptile Park had a mass die off in 2002 which was apparently the first reported case in Australia . At this stage there is no test available for the virus on live animals, it can only be tested for after the animal has died and this can be an expensive process.
as it has said some animals can be carriers without developing symtoms.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

seumas
This was my original intention and this may still happen, however current veterinary opinion and advice given to me is that this expense will only prove what we already believe based on history and known on set and spread of this disease.
For Luke to have every single adult reptile in his collection to be a carrier only and defy the known time period by a huge time period from eventual on set of that disease of those carriers, clearly tells the experienced, that this can’t be OPMV.
At the end of the day, it may indeed make others feel good reading that it isn't by a report from the states but that result would simply overlook the fact that there still realistically remains an unknown retro virus.

One recent example was with Dr Danny Brown announcement to the reptile keeping community that he had OPMV over a year ago. That virus was eventually cultivated (the first time ever in Australia I am told) and proved to be not OPMV. The reality though, was he still had his collection devastated by a horrible retro virus and to this day this virus remains unnamed and maybe even unique to Australia.

Arbok
You have been personally told that Luke has taken appropriate lock down and cease of trade. If you question his integrity, then that is your prerogative but I for one trust Lukes word.

 

[girdheinz]

I'm pleased to see a public lockdown has been declared to prevent the spread of whatever virus is responsible for the death of the animal. I would prefer to see this from Iceman himself but it appears you are his spokesperson PilbaraPythons?

OPMV has been said to manifest itself in many different ways in the US but eventually leads to a die off of at least a 1/3 of an entire collection. The issue of carriers from there is not entirely understood hence the reason for a lockdown period.

I applaud the young recipients in this situation for notifying the public. It is a hard thing to do in this industry with the intimidation tatcics sometimes used to silence people. I'm not implying that this is the case in this situation but nevertheless it can be daunting to come forward with this kind of information.

The original thread posted by PilbarapPthons implied that this was vicious rumors out to discredit Iceman. This alone probably made it even harder for the recipients to go public. It appeared that by discrediting the source of the information before becoming public might stop this occuring. I hope that wasn't the intention of the original thread, but judging by the responses posted it certainly wouldn't have helped Arbok and Haymistas courage to come foward.

Hopefully this public announcement will keep everybody honest in this situation as transparancy is of upmost importance when trying to control a viral outbreak. I hope for 1 Iceman would notify everyone he has dealt or exchanged animals with in the last 6 months as so they can be aware if anything out of the ordinary occurs.

I like others understand this must be devestating for Iceman particularly if it has caught him offguard. I would be terrified of the unknown waitng and watching for something to happen. Maybe in time these experiences of how we deal with such situations can educate us all.

My only other concerns are the connections involved here. From memory there are several keepers associated with Iceman in a syndicate of keepers. I remember True Blue stating that Iceman was taking over all the pilbara BHP's for example. Is this kind of passing over of animals common practice?

All in all i commend all parties involved to plead get it out publically. Hopefully this should help in the conservation of our captive collections.

Gird

 

[mysnakesau]

So just to clarify, there's no new news? No confirmation that it definitely is OPMV?

I was thinking the same. I know one would prefer to treat it as OPMV but the vet hasn't done a pathology test to confirm it. Just saying yeah ok we'll say it is because the symptoms match not sure thats enough for me. There are other conditions that can mimic the symptoms - eating rodents after they had eaten rat poison is a classic example, also snakes can develop neurological problems from other causes. I worked with a python at a park who was un-co-ordinated but it was discovered she was going blind in one eye.

So please, get the test done properly rather than just speculating. Save a lot of money and heartache. O course you still need to lockdown and quarantine until it has been confirmed negative but don't accept "consistent with" without getting second opinion or something to say it definitely was.

 

[girdheinz]

Are you serious mysnakes au? Open the attatchments in arbok's post. A comprehnsive pathology report was done http://s695.photobucket.com/albums/vv318/stellatus09/?action=view&current=Histopathology_Exam-1.jpg

 

[girdheinz]

O course you still need to lockdown and quarantine until it has been confirmed negative but don't accept "consistent with" without getting second opinion or something to say it definitely was.

You know that is impossible. Even the USA tests have deemed to be inconsistent in recent testing. There is no way 100% that this virus can be confirmed unless the virus can be cultured which has never been done in this country. "Consistent with" is the best your going to get full stop.

 

[mysnakesau]

Well I guess it depends how good the vet is. If you put the idea in their head some will just write that without considering the symptoms could be consistent with anything else.

Consistent with OPMV - Is that what they write on ALL OPMV cases? To me, its telling me its a high possibility but isn't saying it definitely is. Just says its typical but not that it is.

I know, I am not trying to defend anyone or block out the thoughts that it very well is that, I just think the wording in that report isn't saying it definitely is OPMV, only that the symptoms are consistent and typical. To me, that says it is a high possibility but still a chance it has died from other causes.

 

[geckodan]

I think as a group we need to stop using the term OPMV and start using the term CVE (Contagious Viral Encephalitis). This term encompasses a syndrome of neurological diseases caused by a virus. This is the only thing we can be sure of. Our histopathologists are seeing little red dots inside cells. Nothing more. These little red dots look exactly like those that would be seen with OPMV - hence the diagnosis "consistent with OPMV". The problem lies in the fact that there are at least 3, probably 4 different viruses, all killing snakes in the same way, all looking like little red dots to the pathologist BUT only OPMV has, at this stage, made it into the textbooks so thats what they have to call it. The second side of this is that if it is one of the other 2 or 3 viruses (which is far more likely) then OPMV testing in the states will almost always give a negative result because its more likely that you are dealing with one of the others. In my case, only 2 of the 23 specimens I sent away to reasearchers in WA grew a virus (not because the others were clear but because the virus is very difficult to culture). THis was the first time this had been achieved in Australia. IT was not OPMV yet it had a clinical picture identical to OPMV. The final electron microscopy results have not yet been supplied to me so the specific nature of the virus is not identified as yet.

Loose your hangups on the name OPMV. Whilst we split hairs on the precise nature and name of the disease, more things die, more collections are infected and more keepers shrug there shoulders and ignore the problem. I see, whatever the problem is in Australia, that it will be endemic in 80% of collections in this country within 10 years with the current attitudes. Regardless of the causative agent it is evil, unpredictable, contagious and there is more about it that we just don't know - call it CVE (Contagious Viral Encephalitis), clump them all together and treat them all the same until we know more (which is going to take a bloody long time). How you deal with them is your perogative. There are no hard and fast rules as we DON'T KNOW WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH.

Remember:
CVE
CVE
CVE
CVE
CVE

 

[redbellybite]

In all honesty both parties involved are doing the best thing at the moment that is LOCK DOWN
no one wants to jump the gun at this stage ..
I wish all that are involved a good outcome in the long run .

 

[CodeRed]

So Dan we know you have a close affiliation with PilbaraPythons and iceman as part of the breeders syndicate. Are you saying that what killed this snake is likely to be the same virus as what killed your snakes?

I personally would like to know just how many animals have been exchanged between the members of this syndicate and who is likely to be at risk.

 

[seumas12345]

In all honesty both parties involved are doing the best thing at the moment that is LOCK DOWN
no one wants to jump the gun at this stage ..
I wish all that are involved a good outcome in the long run .

I think that is the main issue RBB, that if the general concensus between the parties involved is to "Not take the risk if it could be OPMV (or CVE ) and LOCK DOWN" then shouldn't that mean that every single person that has bought a python from these parties in the last year be doing the same? It is very well for iceman and pilbara pythons to go into lockdown mode, but if in six months time they discover that it is actually OPMV, then i fear it will be too late for the others that had previously bought from them and hadn't done the same...

 

[melgalea]

who is luke...i think i have missed something....