Arnhem escarpment (baby Nawarran)

[tropicbreeze]

I think the reason toads won't have had a direct impact on OP numbers is purely because of the habitat. Toads can not get up into most of the escarpment country. So the likely hood of the two species interacting is low. But i absolutely concede that they would have a flow on effect from other eco-systems.

Have to disagree about toads not being able to get up into most of the escarpment country. That's how the toads got into Kakadu, over the escarpment. They didn't go around it. Of course they won't get up cliff faces but they will work their way up steep gullies and still get to the top. That's where I first came across the frontline of the toad invasion, they were in their hundreds, up top in the escarpment. And you see their tadpoles in many of the creeks up there.

 

[DanTheMan]

I was in Kakadu about 4 weeks ago looking for Oenpelli's in a spot where they are often found (well often as far as Oenpelli's go) and there was plenty of toads around, after killing 3 toads sitting in one spot, we walked 10 metres and found a Northern Adder. I have seen pictures of an Oenpelli found in the area we were herping from about a month or 2 before we went there. Unfortunately due to our impatiens and intolerants of flies we only spent one night in Kakadu. Also talked to a photographer there in Kakadu who was after some plants in the area who said he found a few in the area pre-cane toad days, although he hadn't tried looking for them recently.

 

[waruikazi]

Have to disagree about toads not being able to get up into most of the escarpment country. That's how the toads got into Kakadu, over the escarpment. They didn't go around it. Of course they won't get up cliff faces but they will work their way up steep gullies and still get to the top. That's where I first came across the frontline of the toad invasion, they were in their hundreds, up top in the escarpment. And you see their tadpoles in many of the creeks up there.

They certaintly did go around it. The escarpment is like an island of rock in the middle of the top end, it doesn't go all the way to the coast and stops short of Katherine. There are toads both north and south of the escarpment country so they definately went around it lol.

In most of the escarpment i get up into i haven't see any toads, low lying areas with streams flowing from them i have seen them. But maybe they are just doing a good job of hiding from me.

 

[tropicbreeze]

They certaintly did go around it. The escarpment is like an island of rock in the middle of the top end, it doesn't go all the way to the coast and stops short of Katherine. There are toads both north and south of the escarpment country so they definately went around it lol.

In most of the escarpment i get up into i haven't see any toads, low lying areas with streams flowing from them i have seen them. But maybe they are just doing a good job of hiding from me.

Of course they did end up getting around it, eventually. It stands to reason, they're right across the Top End, even into WA. But the first toads into Kakadu got up on the southern side of the escarpment and then moved down through the South Alligator catchment. The first indications were dead Freshies with toads in their bellies. It surprised a lot of people because it was thought the escarpment would slow them, but it didn't.

They similarly got down the East Alligator and wiped out the Quolls that had been radio collared. The Kakadu toads were well on their way to Darwin before the ones further south made their way around the escarpment. And well before the toads got anywhere near Darwin they were in their hundreds up in the escarpment east of Katherine. You only have to go up there to see them.

 

[waruikazi]

I'm guessing that you mean up through the south alligator catchment but i get what you're saying.

I'm talking from an Oenpelli perspective here but to me and in my experience the South Alligator catchment does not have very much to do with the escarpment (from my understanding which i think is better than most because rainfall directly effects me and my mobility, i watch the radar and the catchment areas pretty closely at this time of year). The south catchment and the river skirts the west of the escarpment. The east can be predicted pretty well by the rainfall in Katherine but again the catchment is to the south but to the east of the south's catchment. The runoff that we get out of the escarpmetn this far north is collected in the escarpment country.

By your own reasoning the toads moved up on a southern path not an easterly path through the escarpment which is what i would have expected if they moved into Kakadu through the escarpment. But like i said i totally and uttely concede they could be up here and it is just that i haven't seen them.

I haven't read up on the the toads march out this way so like most of what i say it could be about as wrong as it gets. My ideas are usually assumptions based on my experience, which i try to make clear. Tropicbreeze i'm open to being proven wrong and i listen to good info, i would love to know who you are and your experience in this area.

Of course they did end up getting around it, eventually. It stands to reason, they're right across the Top End, even into WA. But the first toads into Kakadu got up on the southern side of the escarpment and then moved down through the South Alligator catchment. The first indications were dead Freshies with toads in their bellies. It surprised a lot of people because it was thought the escarpment would slow them, but it didn't.

They similarly got down the East Alligator and wiped out the Quolls that had been radio collared. The Kakadu toads were well on their way to Darwin before the ones further south made their way around the escarpment. And well before the toads got anywhere near Darwin they were in their hundreds up in the escarpment east of Katherine. You only have to go up there to see them.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Are you all taking into account it's not just the ambulatory adult toads that move the front forward - the annual flooding of rivers would move toad tadpoles vast distances, and into areas you may not think you'd find them if they were 'walkers'. The species is incredibly pervasive.

Jamie

 

[tropicbreeze]

Waruikazi, I guess if you don't want to believe it you won't believe it. But you appear to be unfamiliar with the South Alligator. It's head waters are up in the escarpment. It has major tributaries, like Koolpin and Fisher Creeks, also feeding it off the escarpment. And the Mary River, which is to the west of the South, also has its head waters in the escarpment.

 

[waruikazi]

Waruikazi, I guess if you don't want to believe it you won't believe it. But you appear to be unfamiliar with the South Alligator. It's head waters are up in the escarpment. It has major tributaries, like Koolpin and Fisher Creeks, also feeding it off the escarpment. And the Mary River, which is to the west of the South, also has its head waters in the escarpment.

Tropo i'm genuinely asking you the questions. I'm more than open to accepting that i'm wrong i think i have made that exceptionally clear in my other posts (certaintly wouldn't be the first time, even this thread came about because i made a pretty embarassing mistake), i'm assuming you have some kind of expertise in this area otherwise you wouldn't have involved yourself in this thread. But i wont beleive something blindly just because someone said so.

My understandings off the catchment areas come from the BOM website and backed up from my experience living out here. Rain in the Katherine region brings the East Alligator up, but rain North East of Katherine gets all our waterfalls flowing and brings our floodplain up (and brings the delicious magpie geese to us!). What happens on the other side of the East doesn't effect me much so i don't follow it.

As far as toads go, i have not seen them atop of the escarpment in my area, i have seen them in the low lying areas especially where there are streams. All that means is that i haven't seen them up in the escarpment and does not mean that they aren't there. I'm sure i can be forgiven for wishfully thinking that there are still no toads up there.

But even if they are up there i'm not convinced yet that they would have a direct impact on oenpellli numbers.