Breeder selling defective snakes.

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soundfix

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The Big Valley NSW
6 months ago, i puchased a pair of juvenille Jungles, from a breeder, who i was referred to from ASP classifieds.
The breeder lived close-by, and although it is know where she resides, all dealings and sales, are done from the back of her car, usually at night,under street light, next to a local park.
May sound dodgey, but ive come across people, that for various reasons do not want their residence or place of business know.
Anyway, after a few days, i noticed one of the jungles had a problem with its tongue.(refer to my previous posts, for details.)
Spoke to breeder, eventually, and after some time, and upon inspection, she acknowledged the defect, and i was offered another snake.
The replacement was the last snake from the clutch, and all exchanges were done very quickly.
She said, she would not be reselling the defective snake, but would keep it. I offered to purchase it back,when/if she found out the problem.-she was just to let me know!
Well she ended up selling it to someone else,-.
The 2nd, replacement Jungle, is not thriving. Although eating, shedding, pooing, its obviuos, when you see her, she will never be well enough to breed.She has a 'clicking' like sound when she breaths, and just very poor strength.
By now im off course very attached to this little sick girl, and no way am i giving it back to the breeder.
This isnt a matter of money, but i feel ethical standards at least.
So i have a few questions for anyone else, who's feels they'v been 'taken advantage off, or bought a snake, and had no recall, due to the breeder not having a place of business.
I feel this practise of 'dark lane way meetings, as unreliable)-i realise, privacy is a concern, but if breeders are making money from a domestic premise's, and probably not paying tax,-surely they must beheld accountable for something, like any other saleperson.
It discusts me how some breeders, treat the whole snake breeding thing as a money making concern and the snake are just commodities, with little regard for the conservationof wildlife, or the welfare of the said, sold animals.
This is part of her reply,defending the snakes parents, when i advise her the other snake wasnt doing to well.
Breeder,----"This pair of snakes have been bred last year and two years previous out of 40 hatchlings there have been only a problem with the three that you have had I did give you the choice of a refund but you chose the other snake that did not have a problem coiling around her food here. I have had the tongue problem looked at by a reputal breeder at Wyoming and said the only problem with the tongue is if it dries out can drop off, fatal in the wild but not in captivity. The female with the long tongue is thriving in her new home and her tongue has retracted so only the tip is out.
The original male jungle, is going great.
Strong, growing healthy, ect.
So its only the female, not 3 snakes as she says.

My other concern is that if this breeder fails to recognise a problem breeder, -
1.Possibly producing 'snakes that would not survive in the wild',, can this lead to unwanted hatchlings.
2. This person advertises herself as having great communications after sales. -i found this not to be the case.
3.The product was not as described, is there any acknowledgment for snake breeders,through the the Consumers tribunal.?
4 Although i except all responcibility, for choosing this breeder,,- does she have any obligation to the DECCC,-
regarding the sale of defective wildlife,--"that wouldnt survive in the wild'.
Had all sorts of advise from' "give the snake away to someone, that doesnt breed"
--and "just go to the breeders residence, if she resists further meetings"
"Complain to the Consumers tribunal" ect, ect
I researched heaps,on 'snake tongue disorders,- (once again, refer to my previous posts on this snake.) I couldnt find anything on 'dry tongue'. If anyone has information, on this disorder, please explain.
Thanks
 
Breeders have very valid reasons for not giving out their address. The dodgy ones may take advantage of that.
If you were offered the choice of refund then you should have kept the good snake and taken the refund. All a breeder can do when faced with an unhappy customer is refund.

I'm not going into the tongue disorder as different people have different ideas about health disorders, but I have never heard of dry tongue.
 
The 2nd, replacement Jungle, is not thriving. Although eating, shedding, pooing, its obviuos, when you see her, she will never be well enough to breed. She has a 'clicking' like sound when she breaths, and just very poor strength.

Respiratory infection perhaps? Have you taken it to a vet?
 
Hi soundfix,
I like to comment on your concerns. Tongue deformity is not a uncommon as we may think but many breeders don't talk about it because it may suggest they're producing defective snakes. I had a few cases of deformed tongues and although I don't know what the exact cause of it is, I suspect it's an incubation problem rather that genetic. If the breeder wasn't aware of the defect (the snake you bought) it doesn't say much about her attention to detail, if she knew, it doesn't hay much about her ethics. In my opinion, deformed tongue is not a big issue, as long as the snake functions normally but the buyer should be told and the snake should be sold at discounted price as a pet.

As cement said, privacy and security is an issue and you can't expect every breeder to invite you to their premises to conduct the deal. However, deals done in dark alleys are not on and you, the buyer have some say in it. If the seller is not prepared to meet you on your terms (within reasons), just walk away from the deal. That's what I would do.

You are referring to captive bred snakes as "wildlife" - they are not wildlife, at least not in my eyes. They can't be released to the wild, they don't hold conservation value (except is some isolated cases), so they are a product of herpetoculture, not wildlife or fauna.

To your questions:

My other concern is that if this breeder fails to recognise a problem breeder, -
1.Possibly producing 'snakes that would not survive in the wild',, can this lead to unwanted hatchlings. None of captive bred snakes can be released, therefore this is a trivial argument.
2. This person advertises herself as having great communications after sales. -i found this not to be the case. Sadly, it's often the case, just don't deal with this person ever again.
3.The product was not as described, is there any acknowledgment for snake breeders,through the the Consumers tribunal.? You have to seek a legal advise on that.
4 Although i except all responcibility, for choosing this breeder,,- does she have any obligation to the DECCC,-
regarding the sale of defective wildlife,--"that wouldnt survive in the wild'. None whatsoever, for the reason I mentioned above.
Had all sorts of advise from' "give the snake away to someone, that doesnt breed"
--and "just go to the breeders residence, if she resists further meetings"
"Complain to the Consumers tribunal" ect, ect In the end, the breeder offered you to take the snake back and you decided to keep it because you got emotionally attached to it. Your call!

I have never heard of "dry tongue" bit than again, I haven't heard everything. Usually these defects are manifested by; the tongue fork is fused, it hangs out all the time or just sometimes, it flicks to the side or is getting stuck on the chin.

Cheers
Michael
 
Spoke to breeder, eventually, and after some time, and upon inspection, she acknowledged the defect, and i was offered another snake.
The replacement was the last snake from the clutch, and all exchanges were done very quickly.
Sounds very reasonable on her behalf - no problem there.

She said, she would not be reselling the defective snake, but would keep it. I offered to purchase it back,when/if she found out the problem.-she was just to let me know!
Well she ended up selling it to someone else,-.
Did she tell you she sold it? When she said "thriving in her new home" she could have meant at the breeders place.

The 2nd, replacement Jungle, is not thriving. Although eating, shedding, pooing, its obviuos, when you see her, she will never be well enough to breed.She has a 'clicking' like sound when she breaths, and just very poor strength.
That sounds very wishy washy... if a snake is eating, shedding and pooing it is fine. What basis do you have by "seeing her" and knowing she won't breed? And very poor strength? What do you mean? Is she always falling off things, can't move around?
The only legit problem you have listed here is a clicking sound when she breathes - sounds like an RI. Heat her up and see a vet.

By now im off course very attached to this little sick girl, and no way am i giving it back to the breeder.
This isnt a matter of money, but i feel ethical standards at least.
If it isn't a matter of money why are you talking about speaking to tribunals?

So i have a few questions for anyone else, who's feels they'v been 'taken advantage off, or bought a snake, and had no recall, due to the breeder not having a place of business.
You were not taken advantge of. You were offered a refund. Then took a replacement snake in a speedy manner. This sounds perfect to me, and good on the breeder for doing so.

Breeder,----"This pair of snakes have been bred last year and two years previous out of 40 hatchlings there have been only a problem with the three that you have had I did give you the choice of a refund but you chose the other snake that did not have a problem coiling around her food here. I have had the tongue problem looked at by a reputal breeder at Wyoming and said the only problem with the tongue is if it dries out can drop off, fatal in the wild but not in captivity. The female with the long tongue is thriving in her new home and her tongue has retracted so only the tip is out.
Sounds as if she is in the right here.. If she has bred so many hatchlings, and one has had a tongue problem and one has seemed "not strong" or whatever in your opinion she is doing excellently. Birth defects are quite common so good on her for having so few.
You fail to mention, but it sounds here as if you have a problem with the snake because it does not "coil it's food".. so? Unless you're feeding live that shouldn't matter in the least. I have two diamonds, one of which NEVER coils it's food. Doesn't matter in the slightest.
The breeder offered you a refund and you took the other snake instead - your fault.

Agree with everyone else: RE the privacy etc. Breeders should ALL be doing meetings away from their residences in my opinion. You cannot be too careful in this hobby nowadays.
 
yes a lot of breeders dont want there address known, in the past this was understood with the amount of money some collections were worth eg green tree pythons $6000 +,but now with the very fast price drops and availability of animals there is less of a chance of having your collection stolen so this trend should start to stop.
and i find it funny how they can hide there address when you deal with permits as by law you have to put down the address the animals are kept ( im sure breeders dont keep all there snakes in a small post office box??).

and as for releasing animals back into the wild, the QLD law states that your animals do not belong to you they belong to the state,the reason they word it that way is because if for any reason a wild population is at risk they can take captive animals and restock a area.( this is also the reason its against QLD law to knowingly breed a mutation e.g Albino as it will not survive in the wild as per EPA knowledge).

and on the subject of the tongue thing ive seen tongues cut off by accident when breeders are piping the eggs so it may not be a genetic trait ??
 
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yes a lot of breeders dont want there address known, in the past this was understood with the amount of money some collections were worth eg green tree pythons $6000 +,but now with the very fast price drops and availability of animals there is less of a chance of having your collection stolen so this trend should start to stop

Seriously? For some its not all about money. It concerns me and we don't have high end stuff.
 
e QLD law states that your animals do not belong to you they belong to the state,the reason they word it that way is because if for any reason a wild population is at risk they can take captive animals and restock a area.

Not at all mate. Repopulating from a captive bred stock in private collections has never been a consideration.
Also, the notion that captive bred animals belong to the Crown (not state) is a bluff just like that they can inspect you collection without your consent or without a search warrant. These things been intrenched for decades but do not hold water.
 
yes for some its not about the money! but the main concern has always been protecting your collection from theft ( not only the money but your snakes are part of the family also).

Not at all mate. Repopulating from a captive bred stock in private collections has never been a consideration.
Also, the notion that captive bred animals belong to the Crown (not state) is a bluff just like that they can inspect you collection without your consent or without a search warrant. These things been intrenched for decades but do not hold water.
im only quoting the law mate as it is stated i dont agree with it!!!.
but as far as inspections go in the passed i got inspected all the time and with out notice (mainly due to keeping venemous snakes). but due to the lack of government funding they dont have the time (enough company cars) to carry them out and the average keeper with one turtle or lizard will never be inspected in there life time.

and i have had a pair of monitors stolen from my house while away fishing one weekend (was not a person who came to my house to buy a python),it was a well known reptile breeder from up my way travelling through town on the same weekend who showed special intrest in the animals a few months before hand.
 
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As for the address thing, it is easy. All you have to write is "as per EPA records" in the address part.
 
I deal with a lot of people each and every year.I definitely do not want some internet random coming to my house to buy an animal.I have no doubt 99 out of a 100 would be honest but how do you find the 1 that isn't?
On top of that I also do not want reptile keepers coming to my house because it would totally stuff up my quarantine system.

If you have a problem having to deal with people in public places then I suggest in future asking the seller that you will only deal with them at their residence,if they are ok with that everyone is happy,if not find someone that will.

Oh and reptiles are NOT products they are livestock.Do you think they should be sold with 12 month,10,000 km warranties or something?
 
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i don't bring anyone to my house unless i know and trust them, when a breeder invites me into their home after 1 phone call i always get off the phone and say to my wife " i could be anyone!"
you were offered a refund....... will they still consider refunding the replacement snake? if so i think you would be very lucky....
 
I think the breeder has fulfilled their obligation, you just sound like one of those people thats never happy. The noise coming from the snake is more likely to be related to your husbandry practices than a birth defect.
 
What i dont understand( and i agree with everyone especially Philk) is why you wouldnt accept a refund and your complaining? A refund was offered and you declined the offer, sounds like a very reasonable breeder to me. And i also agree with her privacy arrangments, in this hobby not alot of people want randoms intruding on their collections.
 
and as for releasing animals back into the wild, the QLD law states that your animals do not belong to you they belong to the state,the reason they word it that way is because if for any reason a wild population is at risk they can take captive animals and restock a area.( this is also the reason its against QLD law to knowingly breed a mutation e.g Albino as it will not survive in the wild as per EPA knowledge).

Sorry, but this is crap. The animals belong to you if you purchased them, otherwise all Queensland keepers would be doing is babysitting snakes/herps for the Crown. A commonly spread myth. The only reason they can remove your reptiles is if you don't comply with the conditions on your licence.

Jamie
 
Is it just the 'snake culture', ?I know of plenty of bird, animal breeders ect, with the same concerns. They have the appropriate security, and insurance.
I have bought several snakes over the years, and have gone to the peoples houses, - ive just never had to deal with a purchase this way before..
I never contacted the breeder over a refund, just to advise her the snakes condition,thought she'd want to know.She told me, "If you have any, any concerns, -just ring me" -this didn -yes a non rept happen
Vet has looked at her. (previous posts.)If me,as a novice breeder, id want to see it for myself.
Yes its my fault i choose this breeder,-and yes i guess im lucky i had my original snake replaced with another snake.Even slightly my own weakness, that i got attached to these animals, whilst waiting for the breeder to contact me( 6 weeks).
She did promise to keep the first snake, and i was to buy it back, if and when it 'recovered'.
No-one expects a gaurauntee, -but when advised ,- the breeder suggests, that i have bought the only 2 snakes shes ever bred, with a defect.
Now im either very unlucky, or this woman is a brilliant breeder. they are not the same details , that she told me back in August.
"Just someone off the internet"- then why would you want to meet in a dark alley alone,- were the person off the internet, could bash you, in the dark and take all the baby snakes in the back of the car!"-
I hope in the years to come, snake breeding people become trustworthy enough , and product confident, to do deals from either a residence or - a place of business.
Guess then youd have to declare that to the tax department?
I know i'll get slaughtered by some breeders,- in that i got what i ask for- but if standards of dealing arent risen from the likes of dark alleys and car-parks, much more security and discretion can be applied, by both parties.
 
Soundfix, you post is really hard to read and understand in parts.

One thing you should take home from all this - don't deal in dark alleys or in the back of a car with a person you don't know. There are many reputable breeders out there and they're not hard to find. If the seller's conditions don't suit you or if you can smell a rat - walk away.
 
No worries, ill go and open a shop so you can feel secure about your purchase......unfortunately that $150 carpet is now going to cost you $400, i have overheads you know, power, rent etc.

If you dont like the situation, walk away, its that simple. Its the breeders choice as to whether or not they have a random stranger come to their property, if they choose not to then go elsewhere.

Harden up princess, you were in a position to accept a refund and walk away. You didnt so now you have to deal with the consequences. I feel sorry for the breeder, ive dealt with high maintenance consumers like you before :lol:
 
Gee Echiopsis that's a bit harsh.
What kind of snake is a Echiopsis?
 
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