Buying Jags

[PimmsPythons]

Hi Simon thanks for sharing that, all that seems like she's faced a bit this year and seems to be coping well, I wouldn't be putting males together to combat so I guess I wont have to deal with that issue , I get concerned enough when my female Bredlis tries to snack on her husband . The neuro issues haven't turned me off the opportunity to own such spectacular animal , I think I agree with Roger's attitude of offering the same as you would on a normal animal. I think if I sent a healthy animal and on the slight chance it arrived in a different condition than that in which it was when I sent it for any reason (I've heard of pythons arriving dead after air freight to regional airports, I've never had any issues though with air freight) I think I would offer a refund for my peace of mind.

cheers
Scott

i certainly agree with Roger as well

 

[PimmsPythons]

Hey Simon,
You personally doubt airfreight could set a jag into neuro issues? I think you need to research what is happening in the local jag scene a little harder, this has been why we are debating.
A customer was airfreighted a jag that set it off into neuro so bad it was returned, euthanized and refunded.
This is where the debate has started from.
Cheers
Adam

and i also stated,which you didn't include in your quote,that it could be possible in a highly stressed animal.sure it can ,and has happened but but you seem to be implying that it will happen to most of them which isn't the case.
i think any respectable breeder would give a refund under these circumstances in this case.
cheers
simon

 

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i think any respectable breeder would give a refund under these circumstances in this case.
cheers
simon

Ok, so.... here is what we are talking about......the animals have the problem so why should you have a guarantee if you are aware of the problem???
How many days after the flight, to what level of neuro issue and detirmined by who - the customer or seller?

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Cement Quote
Ok, this is the first real bit of discussion so far. Thanks again Roger.
Do you think it will be nerve racking freighting by air, with the possibility of the animal succumbing to the syndrome only having to be sent back at a loss to the seller, and then getting stuck with the animal. And generally speaking, can you see the other side where sellers may use the "you knew of the possible problem" line to on sell the animal that was sent back at a later date?
End quote ,

I think that customers need to be patient if there are signs of neuro issues because of the stress of shipping .
If the RPM/jag did not show any neuro signs untill it was shipped , but then does go neuro at the new home after shipping , WHICH HAS HAPPENED OVERSEAS MORE THAN ONCE ???
There are a few reasonible and common sence approaches.
One if the buyer is definately not happy, he can return the python, and get money back,
if the purchaser will to be patient to see if neuro issues clear up etc ,
say , one month period, then if the neuro issues clears up and the purchaser is happy in fully understanding that this stress related condition would more than like come back, probly during breeding , to which its been proven that RPM/jags can mate and reproduce while showing this neuro condition etc,
If the purchaser understands and also aggrees to this he can keep his the RPM/jag to breed etc .
But if for any reason within a short period upon delivery , if they are not happy they can return the python.
i think this is fair,
but asking for refund 6 months later or longer ? after this cooling off period , ie one month,
does not seem reasonible to me.
I knew totally that RPM/jags can go neuro , i accepted this fact and i still purchased mine.
To this day my RPM/jag has been a pleasure to own, feeds like pig, handles great, only hisses a bit,
and has not shown any neuro signs at all.
Im totally wrapped in my purchase from Simon Stone.
these are amazing morphs.
cheers
Roger

 

[PimmsPythons]

Ok, so.... here is what we are talking about......the animals have the problem so why should you have a guarantee if you are aware of the problem???
How many days after the flight, to what level of neuro issue and detirmined by who - the customer or seller?

on my website i have a disclaimer aimed at sexing any animals that have been purchased from myself.if the buyer dosen't agree with the sex that i came up within a reasonable time from purchasing(2 months) then i will either give a refund or send another animal.
i would be more than happy to give the same 2 month time frame(which i think is more than reasonable) to any jag i posted and will add that to my disclaimer if i get around to breeding jags
cheers
simon

 

[FusionMorelia]

Your assumptions are quickly becoming a good source of amusement!

its not assumption, its fact anyone with half a brain and time to read various forums and know where to look will see it just as i do
i will assume one other thing i bet people like you abused and tried to belittle albino breeders when they came out too and look at it now theres albinos everywhere,
bottom line is there is a risk anyone who buys one knows it if you dong like jags then dont get one.

 

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on my website i have a disclaimer aimed at sexing any animals that have been purchased from myself.if the buyer dosen't agree with the sex that i came up within a reasonable time from purchasing(2 months) then i will either give a refund or send another animal.
i would be more than happy to give the same 2 month time frame(which i think is more than reasonable) to any jag i posted and will add that to my disclaimer if i get around to breeding jags
cheers
simon

That is quite commendable of you Simon,
What is the fate of the animal after that?
Cheers
Adam

 

[rick]

Hi Guy's
Just thought i would add that i have 4 RPMs and at this stage none have given me any signs of problems.
An adult female 3.5 yrs just laid 16 perfect eggs
A male 18-22 months of age that has sired 3 clutches. 1st clutch 9 perfect eggs, 2nd clutch 6 perfect 8 infertile and last 12 perfect. The male was put with 3 different males for combat and has not showen any signs of ANYTHING AT ALL.
Another female 2 yrs powering on very well and i hope to breed her next season.
And 1 yearling.
At the time of purchase i was aware of the possibilities of something occuring but fell in love with them.
Touch wood i hope they will be healthy and go on to live a happy life.
There should be some really nice hatchies available this season, so if anyone is interested in some feel free to contact me in a few months.
I will be keeping them all back for a while to make sure they are feeding and are healthy.
Personally i think every time there is a thread like this the same argument get throwen up,
and the same people are for them and the same are against????????????
You dont like them dont buy? You like them realise like i did that there is a small (i think) chance that it may develope some sort of issue. Deal with it if it occurs. But the only thing stopping me from buying some more right now is cash flow.
Some of the new morphs eg: colours, patterns that are going to pop up in the future i'm sure are going to breath taking. They are a designer snake thats what they always have been and if they are making me and plenty more people a great pet there is no reason why they cant make someone else that aswell?
I repect that some people are against them and some are all for them. All this aguing should stop! It gets no where. Yes people should have there questions answered when inquiring or buying them, as i was told,
and then should be left up to the individual if they want to go through with spending there money.
Like i said b4 i love mine and have not regretted spending a lot of money on something that has turned into a python that looks 10 times hotter with age than what i bought it as?
Regards Rick

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Good to have even more first hand information Rick.
Thanks for posting
cheers
Roger

 

[PimmsPythons]

That is quite commendable of you Simon,
What is the fate of the animal after that?
Cheers
Adam

depending on the severity.if it was bad i'd euthanaise it.

Cheers for your input rick .some great info. it is good to hear from people who have actually had first hand experience with them . you have pretty well summed everything up and hopefully we won't have any more regurgitated jag threads.
cheers
simon

 

[rick]

No probs Roger,
Cant wait to put that hot looking TRI STRIPE i purchased from you last season over my RPM female.
I just think that the people that are jumping up and down about them are people that dont own them.
That have a total dislike to them. The extent that they are carrying on but to not have any in there collection??????????
If you look back through i think the people selling them have been pretty up front about what can happen
and that its out of there hands what developes at a later stage IF AT ALL is not the sellers fault, if the purchaser has been infromed about the posabilities then all should be a straight forward sale.
These are truely stunning examples of what a carpet can look like and from a few deticated breeders, hopefully we can raise the bar some more in the near future.
Regards Rick

 

[rick]

Cool Slimbo i hope so to!
Regards Rick

 

[buck]

For the Jag Keepers........

So it seems that at the moment we have a far lower percentage of Jags that are showing signs of Neuro when compared to what is happening OS. What are your thoughts on why this is the case? Is it the particular line? The infancy of the Morph over here? Pure luck?

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Its too early to say anything for sure Buck
lets just leave these issues to unfold so the questions can be answered later on .

 

[najanaja]

''For the Jag Keepers........

So it seems that at the moment we have a far lower percentage of Jags that are showing signs of Neuro when compared to what is happening OS. What are your thoughts on why this is the case? Is it the particular line? The infancy of the Morph over here? Pure luck? ''


Maybe because realy there just a carpet python,
and here is their optimal growing conditions...
even though there captive bred, they still rely on native resources...

I was given a common Coastal carpet a while ago.
Kept in perfect conditions but hadnt eaten in 10 months...
The day i got it i put it in my outside avery (as i live in there natural location) for 3 day and not it had eaten 7 rats in 3 weeks..
being put back into its native environment was all it needed..
there was just something there that we couldnt emulate in a controlled tank environment..

Maybe this is what could help with Jags conditions?

Who Knows?

 

[souldoubt]

For the Jag Keepers........

So it seems that at the moment we have a far lower percentage of Jags that are showing signs of Neuro when compared to what is happening OS. What are your thoughts on why this is the case? Is it the particular line? The infancy of the Morph over here? Pure luck?

As has already been said there's no real confirmation but what we do know from observation of many different species is that inbreeding does cause a higher prevalence of genetic diseases, so in animals that are already susceptible to genetic disease (like Jag's, lab retrievers -yes I do know these are dogs etc) this risk becomes much greater.
Other factors may come into play and once again theres no confirmation but I suspect we will see more problems as the level of inbreeding increases over time.....could be wrong though and hopefully I am - for the animals sake if nothing else.

I think that this guarantee at the point of sale thing is a joke, what if that particular breeder only really looks at the animals when feeding them? I would hope someone breeding jags puts a little more effort into observing the jag's but I don't know them or how they operate. A guarantee in the form of a statement that the animal was not showing any clinical signs of neurological problems when it left the house doesn't carry much weight with me. I would be wanting a thorough neurological examination done by an experienced reptile vet and I would be wanting the vet to write a statement of their findings on examination.....but then again I can be a little cynical and un-trusting.

I dont hate Jag's they are a beautiful animal but I doubt that I will ever own one because I do have ethical concerns regarding their breeding.

back to the original debate - a breeder telling me they guarantee there were no neurological issues with that animal at the time of sending doesnt mean sh-- to me, whats to say they aren't lying. This doesn't apply to the breeders that are prepared to do a refund of course

 

[aussie-albino]

Thanks Rick for that informative post from someone with RPM/Jags sounds like yours are coping with reasonable stressors without neuro symptoms. It is good for those of us looking to buy RPM/Jags to hear this side from experienced keepers.

cheers
Scott

 

[rick]

Dont know really where the argument is with this one but no matter how big or small the gene pool is with the RPMs here in OZ dont we have a endless supply of out crosses here so in breeding does not occur????????????
Rick

As has already been said there's no real confirmation but what we do know from observation of many different species is that inbreeding does cause a higher prevalence of genetic diseases, so in animals that are already susceptible to genetic disease (like Jag's, lab retrievers -yes I do know these are dogs etc) this risk becomes much greater.
Other factors may come into play and once again theres no confirmation but I suspect we will see more problems as the level of inbreeding increases over time.....could be wrong though and hopefully I am - for the animals sake if nothing else.

I think that this guarantee at the point of sale thing is a joke, what if that particular breeder only really looks at the animals when feeding them? I would hope someone breeding jags puts a little more effort into observing the jag's but I don't know them or how they operate. A guarantee in the form of a statement that the animal was not showing any clinical signs of neurological problems when it left the house doesn't carry much weight with me. I would be wanting a thorough neurological examination done by an experienced reptile vet and I would be wanting the vet to write a statement of their findings on examination.....but then again I can be a little cynical and un-trusting.

I dont hate Jag's they are a beautiful animal but I doubt that I will ever own one because I do have ethical concerns regarding their breeding.

back to the original debate - a breeder telling me they guarantee there were no neurological issues with that animal at the time of sending doesnt mean sh-- to me, whats to say they aren't lying. This doesn't apply to the breeders that are prepared to do a refund of course

 

[mojo73]

One of my coastal jags has never displayed any neuro traits until this years cooling. She is now 30 months of age. The only guarantee with a jaguar is that they are co-dominant, good looking and will at some stage display a neurological tendency at some stage of their life be it so minor that it is barely perceptible to them almost looking as though they are cart wheeling through hoops.

 

[souldoubt]

Rick,

That's because I was trying to stay on topic with the original debate about breeders guaranteeing the animals were fine when they were sent - which this thread was started with. The inbreeding comment was just in response to another post, it was by no means the purpose of my post.

Inbreeding always has the potential to occur, whether it does or not is another question... however reading over my post I did write and "as" where i should have wrote an "if" - which may have given the wrong impression and can probably be attributed to my sleep deprived state at the moment