Can you have two

[Myvekk]

I didn't know people were so touchy either!

Well, that seems like sound & well reasoned advice, Captain!

 

[treeofgreen]

I've asked this before but will ask again as I didn't get an answer at the time.

For those advocating keeping 2 or more snakes together,if a poster took your advice on board and something nasty happened would you offer to replace one or both of the animals?

If the answer is no then would it be right to think that deep down you think it's not as safe as you would believe ?

Noone is advocating keeping 2 together. They just said they havent had issues, some have even said not to copy them.

I jump off a cliff each day to get to work, with no issues. You jump off a cliff and lose your favorite curly straw. Do you think i should have to replace your straw? Hope not....

I dont advocate keeping 2 snakes together... IMO its pretty stupid considering their nature.

 

[thomasssss]

Noone is advocating keeping 2 together.

by just coming into a thread like this and saying they do it with no problems , they are advocating it and it is funny that none of them have directly answered Ramsayis question , guess we know the answer then

 

[treeofgreen]

ad·vo·cate (

d

v

-k

t

)tr.v. ad·vo·cat·ed, ad·vo·cat·ing, ad·vo·cates To speak, plead, or argue in favor of.


n. (-k

t, -k

t

)1. One that argues for a cause; a supporter or defender: an advocate of civil rights.

2. One that pleads in another's behalf; an intercessor: advocates for abused children and spouses.

3. A lawyer.



None of this ^^ happening here in support of 2 snakes together brother.

What they have provided is PURE info/fact. Nothing more than that.

Win post Myvekk, hit it on the head

 

[Pythoninfinite]

This comment comes up a lot.Why are they usually found together? I'm curious as to what people think.

This is an interesting question actually. In my days at the WA Museum, when field collecting, especially at the southern part of the Stimson's range, from north of Geraldton to down around the Darling Range in Perth and further east in the wheatbelt, Stimmies are very often found in concentrated groups - one rock outcrop might harbour a dozen or more animals, and they could occasionally be found in groups of 3-4 under one rock. Many of these rock outcrops were isolated in patches of bush, so it's likely that they comprise localised family groups. The lack of spacial pressure probably reduces or eliminates the chance of cannibalism, but who knows.

Cannibalism is always a risk, some people are just prepared to take that chance. 90% of the time you'll get away with it...

Jamie

 

[Myvekk]

by just coming into a thread like this and saying they do it with no problems , they are advocating it and it is funny that none of them have directly answered Ramsayis question , guess we know the answer then

As I said, I don't have an answer. There is insufficient data to give an absolute answer. And as I posted below CaptainRatbag, he gave well reasoned advice as to why it is inadvisable in this case. To advocate it, I would have to say he should keep them together. I never said that. Only that I have 2 Stimsons together, and my circumstances are different.

... one rock outcrop might harbour a dozen or more animals, and they could occasionally be found in groups of 3-4 under one rock. Many of these rock outcrops were isolated in patches of bush, so it's likely that they comprise localised family groups. ...

Jamie

Interesting. Perhaps that is the reason why, as posted above, some specimens that were kept together would breed with other snakes, but not each other. They 'regard' each other as family, perhaps? Is there even a natural aversion to familial breeding in snakes, either in the wild or captivity?

 

[Dippy]

Its definitely a subject many people have different opinions on, As Antaresia are known to be cannibals. I find that feeding out of the tub and a bath after feeding then a re introduction to the enclosure works quite well, As i have my two Childreni living together. Although i wouldn't recommend it for anything that aren't Adult and approximately the same size.

 

[crocodile_dan]

This comment comes up a lot.Why are they usually found together? I'm curious as to what people think.

My view on this subject is that specifically in an enclosure scenario there are a limited number of "micro-habitats" I guess is the most suitable description. There are 'X' number of hides, 'X' number of basking spots, 'X' number of water bowls, 'X' number of branches, 'X' number of plants etc. Each one of these variables has certain interactions with the others (eg this hide may be elevated, this hide may be the coolest temperature, this hide may be the warmest, this hide may be a tighter fit "more secure", this hide may have a nearby fake plant to provide extra cover etc). All these little interactions between cage furniture and abiotic factors create a unique niche within the enclosure, a much more compressed and scaled replica of nature where species distribution is limited to biotic and abiotic factors (as well as other variables).

My point being that each animal is driven by internal forces (thermoregulation, hunger, self-preservation/security etc) and their behaviour reflects these forces. So with a limited number of available resources each animal is modifying their behaviour dependent on these parameters (eg as both snakes are experiencing "near" identical environments it is likely snake A and snake B will need to bask at similar periods of time, same with hides; if there is a hide for each snake they will not experience the exact same parameters so one may be warmer therefore more desirable given current situation).

I don't think it is as specifically clear-cut as my description as other members have posted situations where communal gatherings occur, I myself have observed similar instances. But in a single enclosure housing two animals with similar features exposed to identical parameters I believe it is simply a case of selfish preservation (each animal is only acting on it's own needs) rather than some form of emotional attachment or companionship between the animals.

Sorry for the long winded answer, and it is purely theory I have done no research to back this up so I'm willing to concede it could be utter nonsense.

 

[Ramsayi]

My view on this subject is that specifically in an enclosure scenario there are a limited number of "micro-habitats" I guess is the most suitable description. There are 'X' number of hides, 'X' number of basking spots, 'X' number of water bowls, 'X' number of branches, 'X' number of plants etc. Each one of these variables has certain interactions with the others (eg this hide may be elevated, this hide may be the coolest temperature, this hide may be the warmest, this hide may be a tighter fit "more secure", this hide may have a nearby fake plant to provide extra cover etc). All these little interactions between cage furniture and abiotic factors create a unique niche within the enclosure, a much more compressed and scaled replica of nature where species distribution is limited to biotic and abiotic factors (as well as other variables).

My point being that each animal is driven by internal forces (thermoregulation, hunger, self-preservation/security etc) and their behaviour reflects these forces. So with a limited number of available resources each animal is modifying their behaviour dependent on these parameters (eg as both snakes are experiencing "near" identical environments it is likely snake A and snake B will need to bask at similar periods of time, same with hides; if there is a hide for each snake they will not experience the exact same parameters so one may be warmer therefore more desirable given current situation).

I don't think it is as specifically clear-cut as my description as other members have posted situations where communal gatherings occur, I myself have observed similar instances. But in a single enclosure housing two animals with similar features exposed to identical parameters I believe it is simply a case of selfish preservation (each animal is only acting on it's own needs) rather than some form of emotional attachment or companionship between the animals.

Sorry for the long winded answer, and it is purely theory I have done no research to back this up so I'm willing to concede it could be utter nonsense.

That's my take on it as well.They stay together out of necessity rather than liking each other.Reason I asked the question is because a lot of keepers that keep multiple pythons in one enclosure interpret what they are seeing as their pets somehow enjoying each others company.

 

[borntobnude]

As in necessity are most animals ,
, so- a well fed animal is always a good thing when being dumb and co-habitating animals . My parson's finches do not like the manikins at nesting time if there is not enough nesting material available . problem solved ,Lots of nesting material .
Sorry Captain I didnt see that he was putting two different Antareia together , But , I have seen many zoo s that co-habitate their herps ,usually in large outdoor pits . I guess that these people would do some serious research before doing this

 

[BiteAndSqueeze]

I have kept a jungle and a breadline together for many years no problems. However I take them out and feed them separately and both out of their enclosure so they don't get food smell in their enclosure.

- - - Updated - - -

That would be bredlii. Damn you auto fill.

 

[CaptainRatbag]

As in necessity are most animals ,
, so- a well fed animal is always a good thing when being dumb and co-habitating animals . My parson's finches do not like the manikins at nesting time if there is not enough nesting material available . problem solved ,Lots of nesting material .
Sorry Captain I didnt see that he was putting two different Antareia together , But , I have seen many zoo s that co-habitate their herps ,usually in large outdoor pits . I guess that these people would do some serious research before doing this

My guess would be that the size of the enclosure and types of snakes would be the key. In nature, you might find 3 or 4 (or more) snakes in a given area.... but at any time any of them can mosey along to a different location if they feel the need. At a zoo or park with large enclosures with multiple hides/sub environments so the snakes can get away from each other a reasonable distance may work? In a typical size houshold snake display terrarium where the snakes hav no possibility of getting far 'enough' away from each other.... this seems to me to be where the problem lies.

I personally (right or wrong) just would be nervous myself to try and cohabitate these 2 snakes in a usual size enclosure. It could work out fine, I mean, I have seen the utube vid of the snake and the hamster cohabitating:shock: in a zoo in Tokyo. The risk has to be thought about and there is a real possibility the smaller snake might get eaten, if not straight away, at some stage down the track, you might eventually find it 'MIA' :shock:

All just my own personal opinion

 

[damian83]

You wouldn't put more they one snake In a hide anyway ratbag, your just not that kind of girl..... lol!

Personally I wouldn't put two together, there not as social as dragons.....

 

[crocodile_dan]

On the topic of zoos and wildlife parks. Communal and mixed-species exhibits are common in zoological facilities because of the visual (in some cases educational) aspects of these exhibits. Whilst I'm not saying they are bad, when done correctly they can be very appealing exhibits, but there are many issues associated with such exhibits that generally go unnoticed by the public. Especially in small wildlife parks the need to support the facility financially sometimes overrides the welfare of some of the animals, although I wouldn't say this is common practice but many examples can be found even today.

 

[John_lisa]

Ok so I have read most of the post skipped a few hear and there but I'm looking for info that relates to this

no I don't want to house my snakes all yr round but I do plan on breeding my two jungles that are to young yet but was interested to know would letting them Rome around under supervision help with breeding as I work and when I breed will not be able to supervise and they are beautiful jungles i dont wont to come home to one lol

also I wanted to know the best way to intraduce them as I had them near each other last night they were a lil flighty but as I don't know what the normal behavior should be I moved them away will they bite hiss ect and what should be my warning signs to get them apart before they kill

i just want to know so that I can effectively intraduce my snakes and breed as I'm also thinking of picking up a breeding pair to breed next yr
thanx
john.

 

[lithopian]

At risk of jumping on such a touchy thread, i would definitely agree that it would be unwise to house 2 different species together (the spotted and the stimmy), due to possible cross breeding and temperament.

I also believe that keepers who choose to house their snakes must be very aware of the risks they are coming up against and also have very strict feeding and handling regimes. I am always very suspicious of people who come home to a snake having attacked/eaten their tankmate and always wonder how long it was since the snakes were fed…are they fed inside the enclosure, or taken out and fed in tubs… are they fed together… if one eats and the other doesn’t, what does the keeper do to ensure one snake doesn’t smell like food to the other, who will possibly be hungry in a few days’ time… These are all things that I believe keepers often do not think about, and are happy to take the risks of housing 2 snakes together and then surprised and shocked when something goes wrong. I’m not saying if you follow all of the above tips that your snakes will get along, just that it may minimise the risks for you. The other problem is people will often keep hatchies/juvies together without sexing them- 2 males may present higher risks than a sexed pair may.

At the end of the day it comes down to the cliff jumping analogy again. You are responsible for your own animals. People will make a choice, whether it’s an informed choice or not an informed choice- sometimes people are willing to take the risks and all we can do as keepers is advise them of our opinions and experiences as fellow reptile keepers. This argument comes up many times, and I was one of those inexperienced keepers that asked the same question myself.

In terms of breeding, if both snakes are truly ready to breed, their feeding interest should be very low indeed. Obviously it will be down to the individuals, but most snakes will either be cooled, or cool themselves and refuse to eat until the breeding season is done with, and having 2 snakes together that are in breeding condition and interested in breeding, should not try and eat each other.

Just remember that anything that is alive and thinks for itself cannot be spoken for or “expected” to behave in a certain way. It is an animal that thinks, breathes and acts for itself, regardless of how its owner treats it. A snake should be treated as a wild animal, as predictable as a dog or a cat. They are instinct based, regardless of how domesticated.

 

[JasonL]

This is an interesting question actually. In my days at the WA Museum, when field collecting, especially at the southern part of the Stimson's range, from north of Geraldton to down around the Darling Range in Perth and further east in the wheatbelt, Stimmies are very often found in concentrated groups - one rock outcrop might harbour a dozen or more animals, and they could occasionally be found in groups of 3-4 under one rock. Many of these rock outcrops were isolated in patches of bush, so it's likely that they comprise localised family groups. The lack of spacial pressure probably reduces or eliminates the chance of cannibalism, but who knows.

Cannibalism is always a risk, some people are just prepared to take that chance. 90% of the time you'll get away with it...

Jamie

Yes, I think it comes down to they are usually unlikely to eat each other but on occasions they do, in captivity and in the wild, and on both occasions often by mistake i.e. when both are eating the same food item...
Many people keep all sorts of reptiles together for years without any problems, others do have problems... it all comes down to how well you know your animals and how much risk your willing to take....
Snakes are always best kept solo, ESPECIALLY if in small enclosures

 

[Hamalicious]

Is there any reason you want to house them together or do you just not want to spend money on a second enclosure? You have nothing to gain and everything to loose by co-habitating them. Its unnatural and unnecessary.

Even if your snakes don't literally attack or kill each other, the presence of another snake is likely to cause a dominance problem, where one snake becomes dominant and the other becomes reclusive, stressed and stops eating.

Some people will tell you they've kept snakes together and it was fine and i am not calling them liars, maybe they just got lucky or maybe they just havnt had a problem YET. I kept two MDs together for 5 years before one tried to eat the other. As far as I'm concerned, it's not if but when. Just ask yourself, is it really worth the risk?

 

[Monitors_R_Us]

Yes, majority of APS do, they just do not admit to it.