Continuation: Exporting Reptiles From Australia

[gillsy]

Longqi, I don't think you can compare Indonesia to Australia as far as poaching goes. First of all, labor is not as cheap over hear and collectors would be demanding much more than they do for example on Biak Island. With the price of diesel (A$1.53- / litre), it IS cheaper to breed than collect from the wild. Secondly, the prices for most reptiles are much higher here than in Indonesia and the European trading would quickly come to a grinding hold if they had to pay our prices for reptiles. Basically, Indonesia is a cheap world and Australia is an expensive one. JMO

But currently there are problems with wild caught animals in captivity, people going to poach animals and selling them in our domestic reptile market, [/FONT]

Really? Some poaching has been going on since primordial ooze and some will go on no matter what steps are being taken. But it's a drop in the ocean, I wouldn't say "currently there are problems".[/QUOTE]

Yeah I disagree with the cost of collection, I've covered 4000km's in four days, and saw probably $20k worth of animals. The fuel and car higher cost $1000.

 

[Red-Ink]

I think it would depend on the species, some species' wild population would be hit hard.. particularly the ones that are difficult to breed in captivity... Centrillian bluetounge and Shinglebacks fetch quite a high price over in the US centrals up to 10K and stumpies to 2k. Not that hard to find and quite abundant out there and not that easy or lack of breeders here.

 

[Dannyboi]

I think stumpies and blueys are pretty much poached all the time anyway what with them being exempt from permitting here it easy to say you bought it as you don't require any proof.
If they sell for a lot in the states then I would imagine they would be poached at massive levels in SA.

 

[Waterrat]

Yeah I disagree with the cost of collection, I've covered 4000km's in four days, and saw probably $20k worth of animals. The fuel and car higher cost $1000.

I see where you coming from but that was you holiday travel (I assume). It's different collecting to order.

 

[gillsy]

No these are just animals that would sell overseas, BHP's, Monitors (3/4 different types,) Woma's, Few different morelia. All the wanted stuff overseas.

 

[dpedwards08]

Yesterday's topic of the day was "disease". Today's topic is "poaching". What will be tomorrow's topic of the day? It sounds like you are just making excuses to reject a new idea, an idea that could bring millions of dollars to Australia's economy. Let's pretend that Australia did open it's boarders to commercial reptile exportation, and EXPORTATION only. Let's also pretend that every single reptile in Australia was collected and exported. Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!

 

[solar 17]

one way around 99% of the problems of exporting and poaching for exporting would be to only allow the export of reptiles approx. 3-4 months of age, but before you jump down my throat l would have a "user/seller pays"
system where the breeder pays for a parks and wildlife inspection of their eggs then again as hatchies [with high quality digital photos] then an export ticket issued at three months after several feeds....no system would be perfect but this one would iron out a lot of the wrinkles.....solar 17 [Baden]

 

[Red-Ink]

Yesterday's topic of the day was "disease". Today's topic is "poaching". What will be tomorrow's topic of the day? It sounds like you are just making excuses to reject a new idea, an idea that could bring millions of dollars to Australia's economy. Let's pretend that Australia did open it's boarders to commercial reptile exportation, and EXPORTATION only. Let's also pretend that every single reptile in Australia was collected and exported. Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!

Mate we are not making excuses.... as our values on our animals is more than the all mighty USD which is what you are using to pitch this idea to us (which after so many pages you are still using). We are discussing all possible negative effects of all out border opening. There are very few commercial breeders here in Australia so the fundamental attitude towards the animals is different. It is a hobby for us and only the passionate among us take it on. Our own government don't even like us keeping these creatures and merely tolerate it. As it is passion for us over $$$$ as none of us are commercial breeders but rather hobbyist the pitch of "millions" of dollars will fall on deaf ears. Why don't you tell us how it would be benificial for our animals rather than our pockets and we may listen a bit more carefully? We are not making money now on exporting and were fine with that, we don't really want to make money from reptile full time but merely enough to sustain our hobbies. Money for living is what jobs are for.

 

[gillsy]

Yesterday's topic of the day was "disease". Today's topic is "poaching". What will be tomorrow's topic of the day? It sounds like you are just making excuses to reject a new idea, an idea that could bring millions of dollars to Australia's economy. Let's pretend that Australia did open it's boarders to commercial reptile exportation, and EXPORTATION only. Let's also pretend that every single reptile in Australia was collected and exported. Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!

You don't get, we aren't some small country. The negible effect it will have on our economy is not worth the possible effect our our wildlife. We make more from our seafood than we would ever selling a few snakes and on top of that, around the world there are more people breeding our pythons than here in Australia. Dude we don't need to sell snakes to make good life for peoples familes. I get your exportation only but you don't get we don't want to. There is no tangible economic benefit. We get more economic benefit from foreigners coming over to see how reptiles.

You need to stop stating this economic benefit, it's a very very weak argument, american's breed more of our snakes that we do. Anyway i'm over another ignorant american who probably thinks the queen sits in Australia, and that the moon rises our of the ocean.

We don't want it, it will never happen and frankly I think you need to research what our economy is really like. While your $ falls and ours reaches 25year highs.

Australia Economy | Economy Watch

 

[Octane]

To those who think that export would be an ongoing good money spinner for Australia. Think again once there are reasonable breeding numbers of desireable animals overseas why would there be a need to buy from Australia anymore?

The answer is there wouldn't be.
Refer to the quote from dpedwards08:-

"Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!"

Above translated into Australian reality:

When Europeans and Americans get captive breeding programs going of what they have obtained and are producing in numbers they will not need to import any more. They will be making the money not Australians. Wow what a concept.

Now take a deep breath and resign yourself to the fact that reptile breeding and export is not going to put anyone on the next BRW rich list. Concentrate on the job that puts food on your table and let your hobby be just that.

Octane

 

[Waterrat]

I had the opportunity to meet a few American big breeders, and I mean big, employing staff, etc.. They aren't that wealthy. Most of them are running side businesses with herp equipment, some grow expensive plants, etc., to make a decent living. Even Greg Maxwell made more money from his books than from his chondros ... and his were one of the best.
So, where is the huge river of money flowing?

 

[dpedwards08]

You say that because there are Australian reptiles being bred in America that Americans wouldn't buy reptiles from breeders in Australia or pay the prices of Australia if there was free trade there. I don't believe that is true. Take bushmasters for example. They are bred in America however people still import them. Ok we probably wouldnt import bearded dragons, but I can guarantee you that people would make a beeline straight to Australia for a lot of other species. There are some really nice localities of otherwise common species that would be a reason to import from Australia. People will pay good money for quality reptiles, especially reptiles that they can only get in one place in the world. Another aspect is that just because something CAN be bought here, doesn't mean they necessarily mean they WANT to buy it here.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

You don't get, we aren't some small country. The negible effect it will have on our economy is not worth the possible effect our our wildlife. We make more from our seafood than we would ever selling a few snakes and on top of that, around the world there are more people breeding our pythons than here in Australia. Dude we don't need to sell snakes to make good life for peoples familes. I get your exportation only but you don't get we don't want to. There is no tangible economic benefit. We get more economic benefit from foreigners coming over to see how reptiles.

You need to stop stating this economic benefit, it's a very very weak argument, american's breed more of our snakes that we do. Anyway i'm over another ignorant american who probably thinks the queen sits in Australia, and that the moon rises our of the ocean.

We don't want it, it will never happen and frankly I think you need to research what our economy is really like. While your $ falls and ours reaches 25year highs.

Australia Economy | Economy Watch

Who's this "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Awfully presumptuous of you to be foaming at the mouth about "us" not wanting to explore the possibility of exporting reptiles. I for one, and know others, who don't necessarily think it's such a bad idea. You keep arguing about importing disease etc, but this debate is about export. You can flail around all you want but creating a legal export system would provide a net gain to the economy (on whatever scale) in the form of bringing foreign money to Australia. Period. By the tone of the following:

Anyway i'm over another ignorant american who probably thinks the queen sits in Australia, and that the moon rises our of the ocean.

We don't want it, it will never happen and frankly I think you need to research what our economy is really like. While your $ falls and ours reaches 25year highs.

It is quite easy to infer that you "hate 'mericans", of course you are free to hate whomever you like, but it is a flimsy platform from which to spew your opinion. Believe it or not, you do not speak for the herp community.

Would exporting captive bred reptiles to overseas collectors make anyone a "millioner", probably not, but maybe. You never know. Is there potential there for some enterprising herpers to make a quid out of selling quality, locality specific animals to foreign collectors who will snap them up like hot cakes? You can bet your sweet *** there is! Moronic rhetoric aside, I for one believe there is merit to exploring the possibility of opening up the hobby to exportation, even if only to help find homes for the thousands of "unwanted reptiles that the big name breeders didn't want everyone breeding".

 

[Waterrat]

There is a lot of merit in what you're saying. If reptiles were allowed to be exported, it would have to be strictly controlled, even more so as we are being controlled now and only a few "selected and licenced" individuals or businesses would have the privileged to export. There is NO WAY the government would let every Dick & Harry to export. Can you imagine the politics this would create?

 

[Sock Puppet]

If reptiles were allowed to be exported, it would have to be strictly controlled, even more so as we are being controlled now

Exporting would also raise the issue of which governing body would be in charge of controlling licencing/records or whatever else would be involved to undertake such an exercise.

Currently each Australian State & Territory's rules & regulations are different state to state, depending on the requirements set out by that state's governing body.

Export would have to be controlled by a federal body, or if not, each state dept would have to agree on national standards, regulations, processes etc. for a standardised & streamlined system.

 

[Waterrat]

each state dept would have to agree on national standards, regulations, processes etc. for a standardised & streamlined system.

Slightly off the subject but - this will happen anyway.

 

[dpedwards08]

Why would exporting have to be strict and severely regulated? Why can't it be open to free trade when it comes to exporting live captive born reptiles? Costa Rica is up there in strictness when it comes to exporting reptiles, but I can think of two people, right now, off the top of my head that can export Bushmasters which aren't the most common of all animals, and I don't think there are any limits for captive born reptiles being exporting out of Costa Rica. I understand your argument about people going out and collecting wild caught specimens and then legally exporting them, but come on! Let's get real! Do you honestly think it would make THAT big of a change in Australian ecosystems? What's to say that certain areas of Australia are over populated with certain species that there are no natural predators for. I've heard of record catches of Tiger Snakes over populated in certain areas. What's the problem with controlling some of the over populated species? Or is Australia absolutely 100% perfect with no over-population problems or inbalance in natural ecosystems with no introduced exotic or invasive species? GIVE ME A BREAK! The amount of money in permits alone from eager reptile exporters would yield high financial rewards for the government. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry should be allowed to export reptiles if they so choose. Why shouldn't they? If they pay for a permit to do it, than have at it.

Gillsy, you said that alot of your Australian reptiles are already in danger from poaching and habitat loss. What makes you think that your scenario is any different than the rest of the world's? As far as legends, such as Steve Irwin, are concerned almost all animals in all countries are in danger from poaching and habitat loss. That's why we have CITES and other organizations. That is one reason why we look after these animals in captivity and try to breed them. There might come a time in this world where all the wild habitat is damaged. What happens then? Do we just accept the loss? I believe captive breeding is going to save many species from threat, endangerment, and/or extinction. It already has saved some species. Zoological programs are not the only anwer. It wasn't until the 1960's or so that American Zoos started captive breeding and trying to do well by reptiles. Before then they relied on smugglers to bring them new specimens and an animal that died was no big deal. It could be replaced by the next smuggler that came in with his catch.

As far as the legalities of exporting from Australia for non-commercial purposes, where does it say that you have to be a ZOO? None of the research that I have done has said anything about a ZOO.

To all: nowhere in my original post did I say anything about importing reptiles into Australia so I don't know why that took such a drastic turn towards the introduction of disease and the fall of customs and quarantine.

Invasive Species/Escaped Exotic Species: They blame Burmese Pythons for damaging certain species of rodents that are native to the Everglades. This seems to be a huge topic that people often like to bring up. There is a little bar/pub along the highway to the Everglades that has a huge colony of feral cats there. They did some studies on these cats to see why the wild native populations of rodents were decreasing so drastically. They thought it was the fault of the Burmese Pythons but in fact it was the cats that took their toll. And who's to say that Burmese Pythons haven't helped control other invasive exotic species that have been introduced before them such as nutria (large rodent from S.A.)? My point being that what is commonly believed by all these "eco-experts" out there isn't always true. The cane toad isn't a reptile by the way. It's an amphibian. Chameleons in FL? Are you kidding me? "Watch out folks, the killer chameleons are on the prowl". What wild populations are they going to destroy, crickets and roaches?

If there is already a $350 million business in fish, than just imagine what the reptile trade would bring!

Reptilian K-Man: fortunately which reptiles YOU want to be exported out of Australia really doesn't matter because on the grand scheme of things, you are just one person with one opinion. The world doesn't revolve around you. And you are wrong, there are several species and localities of Australian reptiles that are unavailable to hobbyists, collectors, and breeders or just way too expensive here which means that the doors would open to the Australian exporters.

"we wouldnt make that much money as u only need one successfully mating pair to breed"??? One mating pair is going to supply the demand of the whole world? I think NOT!

"there was a study done a few years ago. It showed that if galahs and cockatoos were legally exported instead of being shot the minimum profit for the department was $35,000,000 per annum" Why can't the same happen for reptiles? Think of all the people that kill snakes. Reward for live snake-$50. It might slow down the instant death shovel in the garden or backyard pond! The stress on animals being shipped today with IATA regulations is far less than what it used to be, even for a journey from Australia to the US. Just think of the animals that are shipped to Australia for zoos and vice versa.

 

[KaotikJezta]

Why do Americans have to have every one elses wildlife, then when they get it they crossbreed it and warp it out of recognition. How many cockatoos and galahs do you think would die of stress if taken from the wild and exported. Cockatoos mate for life so it would be very hard to get them to breed in the first place and it has been proven here that the main cause of beak and feather disease is stress, that's why they made the taking of baby cockatoos from the wild illegal in the first place. I have seen big exporting websites where the minimum order for reptiles is in the hundreds, what all crammed together in tiny crates with no consideration for their well-being or the fact that the native environment they come from is being raped and pillaged to satisfy the US need to own a piece of everything. Sure there are exotics I would love to own, but I would prefer to not own them over taking them from their natural environments and subjecting them to the stress of importation. Maybe it would work if there were strict controls in place but there is always going to be the greed factor and the illegal taking of species and it will be all the easier if exports are legalized in a free trade situation. Also, what does free trade agreement with the US usually mean, they get all the benefits and the other country gets all the US imposed restrictions. As far as our economy goes, have you checked the price of the Australian dollar against the greenback lately, I think you should be worrying about your own economy before trying to help us out with ours.

 

[Waterrat]

My friend you just have no idea what you're talking about and please, don't tell us what we should, could do. Who do you think you are?

Why would exporting have to be strict and severely regulated? Because everything to do with wildlife in Australia is and this would be no exception. Why can't it be open to free trade when it comes to exporting live captive born reptiles? Because most people (not all) don't want to. Can you respect that? Costa Rica is up there in strictness when it comes to exporting reptiles, but I can think of two people, right now, off the top of my head that can export Bushmasters which aren't the most common of all animals, and I don't think there are any limits for captive born reptiles being exporting out of Costa Rica. Well, good on Costa Rica - this is Australia. I understand your argument about people going out and collecting wild caught specimens and then legally exporting them, but come on! Let's get real! You get real! Do you honestly think it would make THAT big of a change in Australian ecosystems? What's to say that certain areas of Australia are over populated with certain species that there are no natural predators for. Which ones? You have no idea what you're talking about again. I've heard of record catches of Tiger Snakes over populated in certain areas. You have heard crap. Tigers have been in decline for 3 decades now. What's the problem with controlling some of the over populated species? ???? There are non! Or is Australia absolutely 100% perfect with no over-population problems or inbalance in natural ecosystems with no introduced exotic or invasive species? GIVE ME A BREAK! Do us all a favor and GIVE US A BREAK. The amount of money in permits alone from eager reptile exporters would yield high financial rewards for the government. Stuff the government, they do very little for us so ... Any Tom, Dick, or Harry should be allowed to export reptiles if they so choose. Why shouldn't they? If they pay for a permit to do it, than have at it. Christ! Would you like to become Australian PM?

Gillsy, you said that alot of your Australian reptiles are already in danger from poaching and habitat loss. What makes you think that your scenario is any different than the rest of the world's? Common sense would. As far as legends, such as Steve Irwin legend? Maybe in America., are concerned almost all animals in all countries are in danger from poaching and habitat loss. That's why we have CITES and other organizations. That is one reason why we look after these animals in captivity and try to breed them. There might come a time in this world where all the wild habitat is damaged. What happens then? Do we just accept the loss? I believe captive breeding is going to save many species from threat, endangerment, and/or extinction. It already has saved some species. Zoological programs are not the only anwer. It wasn't until the 1960's or so that American Zoos started captive breeding and trying to do well by reptiles. Before then they relied on smugglers to bring them new specimens and an animal that died was no big deal. It could be replaced by the next smuggler that came in with his catch.

As far as the legalities of exporting from Australia for non-commercial purposes, where does it say that you have to be a ZOO? None of the research that I have done has said anything about a ZOO. Do some more research.

To all: nowhere in my original post did I say anything about importing reptiles into Australia so I don't know why that took such a drastic turn towards the introduction of disease and the fall of customs and quarantine.

Invasive Species/Escaped Exotic Species: They blame Burmese Pythons for damaging certain species of rodents that are native to the Everglades. This seems to be a huge topic that people often like to bring up. There is a little bar/pub along the highway to the Everglades that has a huge colony of feral cats there. They did some studies on these cats to see why the wild native populations of rodents were decreasing so drastically. They thought it was the fault of the Burmese Pythons but in fact it was the cats that took their toll. And who's to say that Burmese Pythons haven't helped control other invasive exotic species that have been introduced before them such as nutria (large rodent from S.A.)? My point being that what is commonly believed by all these "eco-experts" out there isn't always true. The cane toad isn't a reptile by the way. It's an amphibian. Chameleons in FL? Are you kidding me? "Watch out folks, the killer chameleons are on the prowl". What wild populations are they going to destroy, crickets and roaches? The Everglades are your problem - deal with it instead of telling us what we should do.

If there is already a $350 million business in fish, than just imagine what the reptile trade would bring! Money is everything to you, isn't it? It's behind every reason you have put forward so far.

Reptilian K-Man: fortunately which reptiles YOU want to be exported out of Australia really doesn't matter because on the grand scheme of things, you are just one person with one opinion. And so are with your ideas. The world doesn't revolve around you. Of course not, you are the one. And you are wrong, there are several species and localities of Australian reptiles that are unavailable to hobbyists, collectors, and breeders or just way too expensive here which means that the doors would open to the Australian exporters.

"we wouldnt make that much money as u only need one successfully mating pair to breed"??? One mating pair is going to supply the demand of the whole world? I think NOT!

"there was a study done a few years ago. It showed that if galahs and cockatoos were legally exported instead of being shot Evidence? the minimum profit for the department was $35,000,000 per annum" Why can't the same happen for reptiles? Think of all the people that kill snakes. Reward for live snake-$50. It might slow down the instant death shovel in the garden or backyard pond! The stress on animals being shipped today with IATA regulations is far less than what it used to be, even for a journey from Australia to the US. Just think of the animals that are shipped to Australia for zoos and vice versa.

Keep your US$$$$$$$$ and your brilliant ideas. I find your post not only irrational and feeble minded but also quite irritating.

 

[Dannyboi]

The main thing is it someone on the outside looking in and saying "I want what they have" so he is trying to make an argument for us to do it for his benefit. Look there would be minimal trade with America with the economic struggle you guys are having Australian governments have been and most likely always will be strict on the matter because of the danger of poaching and all the revenue they make off of us reptile keepers by making us jump through hoops. I mean look at what you Americans have done with Ball Pythons. With all the breeders you guys have you would imagine that they don't need to be taken out of the wild but every year more and more are taken to satisfy the need for new morphs or just because they can. I have talked to a few American keepers who have been able to find Australian species that we can't even keep here or if they can be kept here they are 10-20 times cheaper. So why must you insist that we change the way that Australia has been functioning for all this time?