Continuation: Exporting Reptiles From Australia

[slim6y]

Can't open your link sorry.

I'm sure there are success stories, however I think it would depend an awfull lot on how badly degraded the area is and the type of animal being reintroduced. regardless of the successes using it as a means to justify a potentialy negative environmental practice is ludicruos. PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN THE CURE.

The fact the net is littered with success stories only highlights how often we stufed up in the first place

If there is a loophole and you know this person done it legally (which I doubt) then why are you posting this and not exploiting the loophole for your own puposes. I would love some more info on how this person legaly obtained an Inland Taipan

Now that's something i can agree on!!!

 

[Red-Ink]

I never said Australians would buy them back from Americans because they wouldnt. I dont have any qualifications to be a conservationist and never claimed to have any. You are confusing two groups of people I was talking about. You were implying that I said a reptile keeper wouldnt be able to afford a trip to Oz but could afford $10K worth of snakes. Buy the 10k snakes and make 80k of the progeny ....You confused two different issues that I was talking about my mistake i should be more clear and instead of using the word conservation I'll replace it with wildlife exploitation (better??). Or you tried to mix them together to make a point non related to anything this thread is about the thread is you asking us to lobby our government to supply the pet trade with your week arguments and trying to mask them in "conservation" (sorry wildlife exploitation). How is seeing them in a cage NOT educating people about them welll keep looking at them in a zoo then no need for you to own one then... oh education of the public well tick that one off then? If they read a simple sign with the name Inland Taipan next to the cage, that is the purest form of education. Most signs have more info on them than just a name though yes zoos have very informative signs. Does every pet keepr in the US have these signs as well in front of their cages?. Again, the export zoo thing is not true. I know someone who has imported smuggled reptiles from Australia who isn't associated with any zoo. There is a loop hole black market trade in every system! Yes he catches poaches them, breeds them, and probably sells them. No I will not give any names on a public forum. He is a realist smuggler who doesn't take your bullshit rules and regulations wildlife laws for an answer.

Oh sorry you're right, it's called Aussie Pythons and Snakes with "how do i sell my snakes", "repcubtor", and
"Southern Cross Reptiles-Selective breeding for 20 yrs and constantly selecting the best of the best to provide you the highest quality captive bred stock" advertisement across on the front page. Some conservation site this is, huh it's not a conservation site it's a reptile forum? Give me a break! OK just go away then Who started the Australia Zoo? Let me guess...hmm. Bob Irwin and Steve Irwin. They used to keep wall to wall snakes in their living room for no other reason than they just liked them. That's pet keeping at its best. And there is nothing wrong with that! Nothing... because they educate the public and employ qualified people... how many people will you be taking through your mom's house educating them about snakes??

Jamie you are right about that, but there would still be people that would buy reptiles from Australia even if they were expensive. It would be impossible for the market to ignore and withhold from buying reptiles from Australia. We couldn't keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We can't even do it now, thats why there are so many Australian reptiles here now.

Took the liberty in correcting some of the text in your post: see underlined words.

 

[Ramsayi]

Pointless discussion/debate that is just helping to fill up the interweb thingy.It aint going to happen and crapping on about it on a forum isn't going to alter the fact.

 

[Red-Ink]

Pointless discussion/debate that is just helping to fill up the interweb thingy.It aint going to happen and crapping on about it on a forum isn't going to alter the fact.

Agreed and I'm done with that clown...

 

[Bushman]

...I know someone who has imported reptiles from Australia who isn't associated with any zoo. There is a loop hole in every system! Yes he catches them, breeds them, and probably sells them. No I will not give any names on a public forum. He is a realist who doesn't take your bullshit rules and regulations for an answer.
...We couldn't keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We can't even do it now, thats why there are so many Australian reptiles here now.

You need to calm down a bit Dpedwards08.
If for no other reason than keeping your friends loophole open, who I'm sure wouldn't be happy about you blowing his racket in order for you to blow your own trumpet on Australian reptile forums.
You can rest assured that the authorities will be looking into this now that you've brought it to their attention.

Oh sorry you're right, it's called Aussie Pythons and Snakes ...Some conservation site this is, huh? Give me a break!...

APS never claimed to be a conservation site but many herpetologists and hobbyists care passionately about the conservation of our wildlife!

 

[Elapidae1]

I would be surprised if his mate has found a loophole, there is ways of legitimising the snake once it's over there, but that is thier loophole not ours.

 

[slim6y]

Agreed and I'm done with that clown...

But what's the point of trolls if no one is biting...

However, regardless of the immense and credible information this 'clown' still beleives he is right - then you can honestly be left with just one thing to say....

Americans....

 

[fugawi]

G'day Mr Edwards
I understand and respect your idealogy, I think it is outdated and wrong, but I respect it so I will just counter debate your points to try to get you to see the Aussie point of view.

I would love to get up close to American native animals but alas, I too can't afford to go to the USA.......Thats life. Animals in zoos are completely different to animals in private collections. Zoos around the world work as a collective in scientific study and captive breeding programs to aid in the re-release of animals back into their native environments. Private collections are interested in a captive breeding program for profit and to boast that "I have one of these". You must take the first step to understanding that zoos and private collections have completely different aims and objectives. I will take your Beardie point. Yes, millions of them are bred around the world but none of them have made their way back here to re stock the wild populations (they wouldn't survive anyway, sunbursts and scaleless etc wouldn't fit in) I'd warrant a guess that the USA and Europe don't have a proper natural colouration Central Beardie left. Also, there are, I think 7 types of Beardies in Australia, not just the Vitticeps, how does the worldwide pet industry help them? They are ignored because they are not as pretty or sellable.
You have obviously researched the antivenoms which is good but are YOU prepared to keep a fresh, in date supply ON SITE. Your hospitals WON'T keep it. You may be the only source for 1000 miles. As far as keeping them in Europe and USA in private collections, well it's purely for profit and the amusement of the collector not science or conservation. What you need to understand is that Black Snakes are common BECAUSE we DON'T export them around the world.
Your last paragraph....Conservation STARTS with the natural habitat, not captive breeding which is a LAST resort before extinction. First we try to preserve the natural habitat so the native species can proliferate undisturbed. If their numbers drop we try to protect the habitat from feral pests. If their numbers continue to drop we then start to captive breed them. As far as the Temporalis is concerned, that dot on the map indicating its range is probably a couple of hundred miles in diameter, they will find many more than 5 as they widen the search. I am soooooo happy to see that a zoo is studying and captive breeding them rather than a private collector.

And lastly Private breeders of any animals have a tendancy to want to change the original animal, larger, smaller, colours, patterns etc to make it more original and sellable. Cats and Dogs are prime examples, noone actually knows what the original cats and dogs looked like before domestication. They have been morphed, crossed and interbred so much that the original breed is probably extinct. The Budgerigar, common around the world, has been changed so much that they are almost separate species. The pet industry is never interested in keeping things original, it has to try to make them better. There is no conservation in the pet industry...just profits.
At this moment in time I can walk into my backyard and look up and see Cockatoos and Corellas flying past, Rosellas, Rainbow and Scaly Breasted Lorikeets in the trees, at night there are Tawny Frogmouths and Grey Headed flying foxes flying around, on the ground I could find Blue Tongues, Beardies, Water Dragons, Blacks and Brown Snakes, Diamond Pythons and in the creeks tortoises, all this in the suburbs of Sydney. I can do this BECAUSE we don't export them. What will I see if we do??

 

[Cockney_Red]

Quality post Fugawi, pretty much sums up my thoughts, without needing to cramp up my 2 keyboard digits....

 

[slim6y]

Fugawi is promoted to god....

 

[Dannyboi]

Being a fan of Morelia, i say No to exporting from Aus, we have Everything apart from Oenpellis here , and i am sure once they are bred more regularly in Aus, One will miraculously appear in Europe (.?

An American mate of mine told me they are there already. We aren't breeding them here at all really.

 

[REPTILIAN-KMAN]

.
You have obviously researched the antivenoms which is good but are YOU prepared to keep a fresh, in date supply ON SITE. Your hospitals WON'T keep it. You may be the only source for 1000 miles. As far as keeping them in Europe and USA in private collections, well it's purely for profit and the amusement of the collector not science or conservation. What you need to understand is that Black Snakes are common BECAUSE we DON'T export them around the world.
Your last paragraph....Conservation STARTS with the natural habitat, not captive breeding which is a LAST resort before extinction. First we try to preserve the natural habitat so the native species can proliferate undisturbed. If their numbers drop we try to protect the habitat from feral pests. If their numbers continue to drop we then start to captive breed them. As far as the Temporalis is concerned, that dot on the map indicating its range is probably a couple of hundred miles in diameter, they will find many more than 5 as they widen the search. I am soooooo happy to see that a zoo is studying and captive breeding them rather than a private collector.

And lastly Private breeders of any animals have a tendancy to want to change the original animal, larger, smaller, colours, patterns etc to make it more original and sellable. Cats and Dogs are prime examples, noone actually knows what the original cats and dogs looked like before domestication. They have been morphed, crossed and interbred so much that the original breed is probably extinct. The Budgerigar, common around the world, has been changed so much that they are almost separate species. The pet industry is never interested in keeping things original, it has to try to make them better. There is no conservation in the pet industry...just profits.
At this moment in time I can walk into my backyard and look up and see Cockatoos and Corellas flying past, Rosellas, Rainbow and Scaly Breasted Lorikeets in the trees, at night there are Tawny Frogmouths and Grey Headed flying foxes flying around, on the ground I could find Blue Tongues, Beardies, Water Dragons, Blacks and Brown Snakes, Diamond Pythons and in the creeks tortoises, all this in the suburbs of Sydney. I can do this BECAUSE we don't export them. What will I see if we do??

Fugawi should have the last say on this thread !

How much money do you have cuase keeping up to date with the anti vens and the cost of them and being sent to the USA in transport will cost you your arm and both legs !!! stick with what you have there already cobras !

 

[Dannyboi]

I regularly communicate with Australian reptile educators and none of them work for a National Park. That is for the government to run, not a private individual. .

Steve Irwin....... He used a load of his profit to buy land and turn it into reserves he also educated the world on reptiles.

 

[slim6y]

I agree KMAN - Fugawi should have the last say - only a fool would argue with that logic.

Finally from me (unless something really stirs me up in here):

Want a nice Aussi brown?

Try a brown tree snake (ok, so it's a colubrid... but... you can get one)...

Go to Guam - I hear they're giving them away!!!

 

[Dannyboi]

. Who said anything about new native stock from Australia? In order to breed you would need a male and a female. That is $10K. You can't spend $5K and breed with one animal.

Bynoes Geckos...... you only need one.

 

[Ozzie Python]

Bring in the debating club from the gay discrimination thread. They'll sort this out for us

Fact is it doesn't matter how much we wanted to send animals OS it wouldn't happen. Educating Australia would be a much higher priority, and far more beneficial to helping our native animals. Surely you guys in the USA have animals that require attention, better to look after your own backyard first i think.

 

[Hoyle00cdn]

Domesticated dogs are technically a subspecies of the c.lupus species, so in retrospect we do know what the original dog breed looked, and continues to look like, it's called the gray wolf. But this is off topic.

Australian export laws are neither good nor bad, they are simply a set of laws that regulate the distribution or lack thereof towards their native animals. It's a method of maintaining the status quo; if it's not broken why fix it.

It would be nice if Aussie reptiles were more easily accessible around the world. I myself would love to get my hands on an Australian Water Dragon. The quality of these animals always amaze me, but having said that this very quality can be attributed too the exportation laws you guys are discussing. Aussie reptiles outside Australia are rare to find but not impossible, and when they are found you can rest assure a high probability that it came from a reputable line of captive breeding. They're always healthy, acclimatized to captive living, and more easily tamed.

Breeding tends to have more of a face attached too it than commercial gains. Private breeders take their hobby more serious and take care in knowing where their offspring are going. You won't find any Australian reptiles in a petsmart or petco because their notorious husbandry habits keep them on bad terms with private breeders.

To put things into perspective. Chinese water dragons go for about $70 a piece, while Australian Water Dragons start around $300. The main reason for the difference is the low supply and the quality you are guaranteed. While exportation laws do make it hard to obtain these amazing animals, it DOES improve the quality of life for them both in the wild AND in captivity.

 

[fugawi]

Why is it a Canadian can "Get it" straight away but Americans just don't?

I thought African Wild Dogs were the closest, I am probably wrong.

 

[Hoyle00cdn]

I'm no expert on canine evolution, but I believe all known domestic dogs are classified within the canis-lupus species under either C. l. familiaris and C. l. dingo subspecies. The African Wild dog is a different genus ans species.
In terms of breeding, cross breeding subspecies under the same species is not really hybrid breeding and does not cause infertile offspring.

 

[fugawi]

You learn something new everyday