ID

[dihsmaj]

Keelback

 

[Herpaderpa]

I cringe at the thought of getting into this debate again lol

But... those who are inexperienced and wish to learn are not going to learn by not participating.

If all the experts simply posted "californian king snake" and no one had any challenging opinions or dialogue... what would we learn from that? Not as much if a dialogue was opened up by perhaps less experienced peoples suggestions or opinions. Experienced herpers can and will no doubt jump at the chance to correct the idea and in doing so hopefully explain their reasons why.

I posed a possible suggestion in another thread in a questioning manner... and by doing so opened up new dialogue on this possibility and ended up learning a fair bit in regards to various species range from experienced local herpers. I see ID threads as an invaluable way for the inexperienced to begin to learn from the experienced through honest and open discussion. I may never have had another opportunity to learn the information that I did learn.

I like Blues idea... if not experienced, pose your suggestion in an appropriate fashion. There will always be someone experienced to debunk incorrect assertions... the danger in incorrect ID is on par with the danger of the experienced failing to impart their wisdom.

 

[waruikazi]

Waruikazi,

You have used the term “misinformation’ to refer to “misidentification” – neither relevant or appropriiate under the circumstances. You compared this to sex education blue! How was that appropriate or relelvant?!?!?! I was talking about “experts” having made a correct identification, helping those wishing to learn by informing others how they went about it i.e. providing information to enable correct identification. OK, that style of learning doesn’t suit you but there are others who have specifically requested it. Yet you still object, seeming based on some belief that anyone trying to learn how to ID or to get better at it, is going to start posting wild guesses in critical ID threads. Iguess we had best differ on that point because I have more faith in human nature than that. You find me any thread on this entire forum where someone has asked me how to identify one snake from another and i haven't helped them. My post pertained to the idea that someone who can't separate two different families of snake from each other would more than likely not understand what a loreal scale is! There are significantly easier and safer ways to make the differentiation.

I even refrained from entering into this part of the conversation until i saw your post encouraging people who don't know to have a guess. I would appreciate you showing me exactly where I did that. I made the statement: “If you wish to achieve responsible posting in ID threads, then encourage those who are not 100% certain to do as was done in this thread, place question marks after your suggestion.” This statement and your paraphrase are NOT equivalent. This is never acceptable! Same thing blue! That post reads to me as 'Have a guess!' I do not think that is appropriate any day of the week when the stakes can be potentially life threatening! If a poster can't be 100% certain down to ATLEAST the genus level then they need to leave the identifying to other people!

This is the actual statement I made, which (for reasons unknown) you are trying to discredit:
“Bandy Bandys are the only banded black and white (or dark reddish brown and white) Australian snake and the bands are go all the way around i.e. right across the ventrals”.
The Leucobalia fordonia has a black reticulum, not banding and it extends only partially onto the ventrals completely around. I fail to see any white bands on the Brachyurophis roperi and again, nothing on the ventrals. The same is true of all the other banded members of the Shovel-nosed snakes. Hopolocephalus stephensii I have already explain as not being white bands and the dark bands do not extend onto the ventrals. I have never seen or heard of a Carpet or Death Adder fitting that description, not even in captivity and their ventrals are either uniformly light in colour or with a dark reticulum in places, not bands and not continuous with dorsal colours. Laticaudia colubrina are a light to dark bluish grey above and yellowish below – not white. The Kraits are as close as it gets, for from my limited knowledge the banded Hydrohids that occasionally get washed up on our shores are invariably an olive or mid-brown colour. Given the context of the original comment I hardly think it appropriate to be including pelagic visitors. So sorry Blue i forgot the original snake in question was a native Australian and is the only species like that to turn up in that area!

What a complete waste of time!

I'm sorry you feel this is such a waste of time Blue. I think that tells us a whole lot more about you than it does me.

If you can't see that someone searching for an ID could describe those snakes i have posted pictures of and named as banded black or 'dark reddish brown' and white then... i don't know maybe i am talking to a brick wall. How many novices do you think are going to come onto the forum and ask 'I saw this dark reddish brown snake with white reticulums in places extending only partially onto the ventral surface...'

I hope you manage to read what i have responded to in your post, if you don't i will paraphrase for you:

If you are not competent at identifying Australian snakes then leave the naming and identifying to those who are. By all means read, listen and ask questions until you can. Only then you should be getting involved.

 

[Waterrat]

When someone posts a pic of a snake and asks others to identify it, surely, he/she is not interested in guesswork or wrong or unreliable "suggestions". What's the value in that?
It's also funny that once the correct (or incorrect) ID is given, 20 other posters have the urge to confirm, often just by repeating the ID already given several times. Are they trying to reassure the OP or just impress others and lift their self esteem?
Anyway, it's fun to read these threads.

 

[Herpaderpa]

If you are not competent at identifying Australian snakes then leave the naming and identifying to those who are. By all means read, listen and ask questions until you can. Only then you should be getting involved.

Typically the inexperienced do pose their suggestions as questions and this is exactly what blue was arguing. The irony of your argument is you are agreeing with blue in a different way and then arguing about it lol
I agree, inexperienced should pose their suggestions in question form and/or ask for input. But they should not be discouraged from participating otherwise they will never learn. Being told you are wrong and having it explained to you why is going to be the best way to learn.

This is the only person that suggested bandy bandy and this is exactly what they said..

bandy bandy?

Face doesn't seem quite right though

They did not positively ID the snake, they posed it as a question. No one positively IDed this snake incorrectly but posed suggestions in the form of questions.

Again... everyone should promote the idea of LOOK BUT DO NOT TOUCH.

 

[miss2]

so what have you done with its body rattler?

 

[Poggle]

I just love how much people are criticized on this web site. There used to be a thread on here, called guess the herp i believe and this was a god thread to post snakes and others and let people guess what it was, yet the "experienced herpers" were still quick to bag out those who did not get the breed correct. I think that's the problem with this hobby. So many so quick to criticize and not assist. Before any one flames me, i understand that this is an ID thread but still, starting to get over the all the criticism and cr** that go's on this site. Meant to be a forum to assist and educate or help others.

Pog

 

[waruikazi]

Herpa again i disagree. I know i may almost be a little over the top on this topic, but that is because i have seen the results of mis-IDs and i have intervened in some very near misses.

Posting question marks after an ID does not make what you say a question. It makes it an ambiguous statement.

Hypothetical scenario, if enough people guessed the species and posted 'Keelback???' For an ID, then i don't think it is unreasonable for the OP to assume that the snake in question is a keelback. And where regular members might understand blue's new rule that question marks mean that the poster doesn't really know what the snake is the OP may not. Just take a look at the number of ID threads, a significant portion of them are by first time posters.

Like i have said in every single thread where this argument comes up, read, listen and ask questions but don't post your ID until you are 100% sure on what you are saying. You can even have your guess, just don't post it! Write it down on a peice of paper if you really want to, then wait and see if you got it right.

I know mistakes are going to happen every now and then, no one is infalliable. I've made a few mistakes in ID threads before but we should be doing everything we can to stop those mistakes.

Typically the inexperienced do pose their suggestions as questions and this is exactly what blue was arguing. The irony of your argument is you are agreeing with blue in a different way and then arguing about it lol
I agree, inexperienced should pose their suggestions in question form and/or ask for input. But they should not be discouraged from participating otherwise they will never learn. Being told you are wrong and having it explained to you why is going to be the best way to learn.

This is the only person that suggested bandy bandy and this is exactly what they said..



They did not positively ID the snake, they posed it as a question. No one positively IDed this snake incorrectly but posed suggestions in the form of questions.

Again... everyone should promote the idea of LOOK BUT DO NOT TOUCH.

 

[Red-Ink]

Information helps...
Guesses do not...

If an ID is given, give information on how that ID was made i.e. characteristics that led to the "correct" identification.
If it's a guess then it might as well be the OPs guess as they were the one that saw it "in the flesh", so that really does not help anyone. A ?? might as well be a ?? from the OP so no real help there.

When people are asking for some help indentifying a specimen, I'm pretty sure their not looking for a guessing game (I know I don't otherwise I would title it guess the ??).

 

[Herpaderpa]

Again... promote "look but don't touch"

Even more experienced herpers can get it wrong at times. You can't ban people from being wrong.

I understand your concern, but the only person you can control waruikazi is you. If you are indeed so passionate you would be better to make sure you post on every ID thread the importance of a correct ID and "look but dont touch".

Herpa again i disagree. I know i may almost be a little over the top on this topic, but that is because i have seen the results of mis-IDs and i have intervened in some very near misses.

Did those misidentifications occur because the person came onto a forum for ID and some noob posted an incorrect ID that they believed over the more experienced posters ID? Or was it from a lack of experience and knowledge on the persons behalf?

 

[Waterrat]

Many, mainly newbies take forums such as this one for a gospel and believe what's posted here is the truth. They don't know otherwise because they don't read books, magazines or sc, papers. The reasons for not reading literature are many, lets not go there. Information given here should therefore be credible and useful - wild guessing does not help anyone.

 

[waruikazi]

I do promote look don't touch for people who do not know what they are doing. Like i said no one is infalliable, mistakes will happen but that does not make guessing games appropriate or OK.

The mis-ID's came from people listening to others who do not have the skills required to make accurate identifications. Where that mis-information comes from is irrelevant. And i was one of those who was mis-informed when i was younger and i took that word as gospel.

I promote best practice by practicing what i preach, if i don't know what i am saying is 100% accurate i won't say anything. Take a look in most ID threads where there are guessing games going on, i will more often than not have posted my thoughts on guessing games. I have been wrong once in ID threads, i realised my mistake and then made a more accurate identification. No one is infalliable.

Again... promote "look but don't touch"

Even more experienced herpers can get it wrong at times. You can't ban people from being wrong.

I understand your concern, but the only person you can control waruikazi is you. If you are indeed so passionate you would be better to make sure you post on every ID thread the importance of a correct ID and "look but dont touch".



Did those misidentifications occur because the person came onto a forum for ID and some noob posted an incorrect ID that they believed over the more experienced posters ID? Or was it from a lack of experience and knowledge on the persons behalf?

 

[CHEWY]

I am not going to comment on the ID of this snake nor the debate on ID thread ettiquette.
I will however comment that this snake could survive in Sydney.
As Blue has said, this snke naturally lives in varied environments with varying conditions.
Sydney has weather very similar to parts of the USA. For example, look at the established colony of American Alligators living at the Australian Reptile Park. They have no hides, heat or anything else given to them except food. (Something this snake would not struggle to find)
I recently was sent a photo from Blacktown of a "wild" snake to ID. It was a Grass Snake Natrix natrix
Exotics snakes are being kept privately on mass, and escapees can pose a threat to our wild.

 

[Waterrat]

Chewy, while I agree with that you have said, this snake and many other exotic species could survive in Sydney and other places but they would die eventually with a little impact on our environment and local ecology.
How many individuals of both sexes are needed to establish a viable population? I forgot .... someone in the know please post the figures. From what I hear, Corn snakes are the champions because many are being bred and many escaped - that is a worry!

 

[Echiopsis]

I agree with Waruikazi, if you dont know the correct answer keep your hands off the keyboard and wait for someone who does. By all means ask more specific questions about the patterning or any other diagnostic characters but unless you know what you are looking at shut up and try to learn something. After an accurate ID has been given by all means ask how that ID was arrived at (to increase your knowledge) but leave the initial ID to those that know.

Unfortunately people who find these forums looking specifically for an ID expect those here to know what theyre talking about. This isnt the case in many situations.

 

[Waterrat]

The same goes for diagnoses of sick snakes, suggested treatment, etc..
It different to say "my snake had a scale rot, I used petroleum jelly and it got better" (right or wrong) ..... and to say "I think ur snake has burns and I herd that petroleum jelly is good 4 it". See the difference?

 

[CHEWY]

Chewy, while I agree with that you have said, this snake and many other exotic species could survive in Sydney and other places but they would die eventually with a little impact on our environment and local ecology.
How many individuals of both sexes are needed to establish a viable population? I forgot .... someone in the know please post the figures. From what I hear, Corn snakes are the champions because many are being bred and many escaped - that is a worry!

I agree with you 100%. There were a few questions on whether this species could survive in the wild.
While a viable population may not succeed from a few escapees, just one snake could do some damage on threatened species. I used to find Red Crowned Toadlets as a kid all the time.It has been a long time since I have a wild one. I'm sure there would be a few left locally.
I wonder how many Red Eared Sliders it took to set up colonies in Centenial Park, or the Golf Courses near the airport?
It may all be talk, but the potential is definately there.

 

[love_blueys]

king snake

its a king snake i found one down the road from my house in dapto in the cutter still alive very placid didnt know wat it was and i call wires and it got taken to be put down but corn snakes and king snakes and rat snakes are realy common i have found corn snakes in my friends places and in ally ways and i found out after i took 3 baby corn snakes out of my mums boy friends house that his the person that lived next door was a full breeder of exotics and he got arested also red eared slidders are being found in the local ponds reealy sad because thye kill our natives like the sydney basin short neck and the eastern long neck turtle

but any way im gavin a newbie to this site and i love my blue tongues im only 16 but have had blue tongues since i was 8 my first was a wild caught then i got my licence and yer and im the only person i no in dapto that has bred 2 albino blue tongues

 

[Bluetongue1]

Chewy, while I agree with that you have said, this snake and many other exotic species could survive in Sydney and other places but they would die eventually with a little impact on our environment and local ecology.
How many individuals of both sexes are needed to establish a viable population? I forgot .... someone in the know please post the figures. From what I hear, Corn snakes are the champions because many are being bred and many escaped - that is a worry!

Waterrat, did you not see my earlier post? There is good information available from Britain, America and a number of European countries on species known to have been released and which ones established and spread as a result. No where mentioned is less than 50%. Other than the Cane Toad, the following exotics are well established and spreading in Australia. Do you still maintain that exotics will die out?

Asian House Gecko (Hemidactylus frenatus)
Mourning Gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris
Red-eared Slider (Trachemys scripta)
Flower-pot Snake (Ramothyphlops braminus)

I am not sure whether readers realise just how wide spread and well established populations of these species are. If not, check it out. Rather worrying!

In answer to your question of how many are needed to establish a viable – it can be a little as one gravid female or one reproductive pair (in the case of most amphibians). One batch of fertile cane toad eggs would have seen the same result as we have today, just 10 years or so later. The North America Bullfrog (Rana catesbeiana) established a breeding population in the Netherlands due to the addition of 5 tadpoles to an outside pond. The Brown Tree Snake on Guam was likely initially shipped to Guam as a stowaway in military cargo from Papua New Guinea (Admiralty Islands area) during the post World War II years. The Common Wolf Snake(Lycodon aulicus capucinus), native to SE Asia, is now established on Christmas Island, believe transported in cargo such as pallets of timber from Indonesia or the Philippines.
The reality (on which you were no doubt banking) is that, other than deliberate attempts at establishment for biological control or such, it is usually not known how many animals were involved in forming a founding population. There is not a lot of experimental data either, but I did locate the following. “Losos et al (1997) introduced populations of A. sagrei lizards onto small islands from a nearby source. They introduced propagule of five or ten lizards (2:3 ratio male: female) onto 14 small islands in the Bahamas that did not naturally contain lizards. On all but some of the smaller islands the lizard populations persisted. On some islands the lizards thrived, attaining a population of over 700 individuals on one island. Similarly, Losos and Spiller (1999) released propagules of five individuals (three mostly gravid females and two males) of A. sagrei on ten very small islands in the Bahamas. They repeated this experiment on a further ten islands with propagules of five individuals of A. carolinensis. The A. sagrei populations thrived on nine of the ten islands. In contrast, many of the introduced populations of A. carolinensis became extinct.” This information is extracted from the Australian Federal Government article located at the following web address. It has a wealth of relevant information that will likely answer any further queries you may have on the topic.
http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Risk_Assess_Models_2008_FINAL.pdf

 

[Waterrat]

Waterrat, did you not see my earlier post? There is good information available from Britain, America and a number of European countries on species known to have been released and which ones established and spread as a result. No where mentioned is less than 50%. Other than the Cane Toad, the following exotics are well established and spreading in Australia. Do you still maintain that exotics will die out?

Asian House Gecko (Hemidactylus frenatus)
Mourning Gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris
Red-eared Slider (Trachemys scripta)
Flower-pot Snake (Ramothyphlops braminus)
http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Risk_Assess_Models_2008_FINAL.pdf

Yes I do. The above mentioned species and cane toads were introduced in large numbers not by one or two individuals. Also, we are not sure if Hemidactylus and Lepidodactylus is not parthenogenic (at least some populations). Besides, most of them wouldn't survive in Melbourne.