Importing Reptiles to WA

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Like snowman has said.
* DEC finally promoting Captive breeding letting you breed however much you want on cat1 and cat2, then 2 clutches per species on cat3 and 1 clutch per specie on cat4 and 5.

I think this still sucks.... It sounds like we still have to trade through a dealer. No one out side of WA has this restriction of moving animals through a dealer. They simply use each others license numbers to trade. It just adds to the expense of the hobby. The only light at the end of the tunnel on this restriction at present is the possibility of WAHS getting a dealers license so it's members can trade.
 
Like snowman has said.

If all goes well there will be a few changes.

* Hopefully a few animals added to the list.
* Animals being moved to different Categories.
* 3 monthly returns to go to a annual return.
* DEC finally promoting Captive breeding letting you breed however much you want on cat1 and cat2, then 2 clutches per species on cat3 and 1 clutch per specie on cat4 and 5.

There will still be a big NO to Import Pythons into WA.

While this may be the scuttlebutt, don't believe anything till it happens. The agreed list of animals was modified at the last minute by the Dept prior to the introduction of the system, and a number of other changes occurred which were not agreed - eg the ban on importing pythons, eg the current return system. The Dept is not bound to any of the changes we are hoping for. I may be overly cautious, but I'm not going to believe anything this time round till it happens.

In addition, i think we can expect the unexpected. We've already had a flag that there will be a modification (seemingly upward) to the charges imposed on us. I wouldn't mind betting some other regressive steps are taken as well. Fingers crossed I'm wrong!
 
They won't make any concessions to keepers without it costing you dearly somewhere else - you'll have to pay a penalty somewhere for every gift they appear to be giving you.

J.
 
They won't make any concessions to keepers without it costing you dearly somewhere else - you'll have to pay a penalty somewhere for every gift they appear to be giving you.

J.

They sound like my Ex
 
That's why you feel so comfy over there Donk! Only reptile keepers with a persecution complex can live in WA! (but most of them knock off at 4.21 it seems, so that's a benefit!)

J
 
LOL... I'm leaving the house at 5:30am each day if that helps :) (and I usually finish at 4pm..but was late in ;) )
Though today I'm off to Brockman in the Pilbara for an exciting week of checking electrical schematics.... Then of course three days off :lol:
 
Like snowman has said.

If all goes well there will be a few changes.

* Hopefully a few animals added to the list.
* Animals being moved to different Categories.
* 3 monthly returns to go to a annual return.
* DEC finally promoting Captive breeding letting you breed however much you want on cat1 and cat2, then 2 clutches per species on cat3 and 1 clutch per specie on cat4 and 5.

There will still be a big NO to Import Pythons into WA.
i wonder weather we could all ban together and properly protest or talk to the local goverment at all rember there will be a local election coming up it might be in our favour to get all the western australian keepers to gether to do something about importing of pythons
 
i wonder weather we could all ban together and properly protest or talk to the local goverment at all rember there will be a local election coming up it might be in our favour to get all the western australian keepers to gether to do something about importing of pythons

We have been trying to do just that, as members of WAHS. WAHS - West Australian Herpetology Society Inc
Problem is most keepers aren't interested in joining or forming their own committee to protest the current system. There was a big debate about it on the PP forum. I'll PM a link to you and you can make up your own mind about it all. There seemed to be a keeper or two who opposed the idea of joining WASH to ban together.... I think someone even said they were content with the current system...
 
link me to please

Oh and PP send me my acceptance for the forums

donks
 
donks
If you get rejected send me a e-mail. I reject all accounts that don't end in .au to weed out the huge amount of automatic spam bots ( about 150 a day). So far so good. I am sure there are a few geniune keepers that have e-mails that I don't reconiize as being Australian but the way I figure it, if I reject them and they complain, I can easily fix it for them.

Regards Dave
 
Never assume


Niall,

Irrespective of the stage that discussions are at with DEC, you cannot put a time on when things will actually happen. Nor can you be assured that all that has been “promised” will, in fact, eventuate. They always leave themselves an out – ministerial approval or the need to alter the legislation. All that is needed is for something untoward to crop up at the last minute and it can be a case of there goes the shooting match. So to be stating what will happen is, unfortunately, somewhat premature at this stage. The things you mention have been agreed to in principle but not etched in stone. There are a few more hoops to go through yet before we are home and hosed.

As has also been pointed out, expect the unexpected to be included. And expect not to like it. There is invariable a barb attached to getting that which we seek.

The reality at this point in time is that we need to wait and see what actually eventuates rather than make predictions based on suppositions.

Mike
 
Really interesting thread guys. I didnt realise u could import any herps into WA at all... am hoping to join the WAHS soon. And i would definitely support the mentioned changes.
 

Niall,

Irrespective of the stage that discussions are at with DEC, you cannot put a time on when things will actually happen. Nor can you be assured that all that has been “promised” will, in fact, eventuate. They always leave themselves an out – ministerial approval or the need to alter the legislation. All that is needed is for something untoward to crop up at the last minute and it can be a case of there goes the shooting match. So to be stating what will happen is, unfortunately, somewhat premature at this stage. The things you mention have been agreed to in principle but not etched in stone. There are a few more hoops to go through yet before we are home and hosed.

As has also been pointed out, expect the unexpected to be included. And expect not to like it. There is invariable a barb attached to getting that which we seek.

The reality at this point in time is that we need to wait and see what actually eventuates rather than make predictions based on suppositions.

Mike

Thanks for that Mike. At the time that Mike, Simon and I were talking to DEC (then CALM), we were fairly confident that we had designed, in collaboration, a fairly good system - and I was assured just before the regs became law, by Gordon Wyre, that WA would be seen to have the "best reptile keeping system in the country". We had had little contact with them during the 12 previous months (I spent an experimental 12 months in NSW in 2002, which lead to my eventual move here in 2005), so when we saw how the bureaucrats had disfigured what we thought was an agreed-upon framework, it came as a shock.

The entire system is dysfunctional, and loaded with such stringent and onerous requirements of keepers, that many, if not most, indidviduals will come iunder scrutiny for such things as late returns (this is guaranteed by the requirement for 3-monthly returns for new keepers), for not keeping the bodies of deceased animals in the freezer until the Dept tells you you can dispose of it, or for some other simple mistake or oversight. The costs are enormous for keepers, relative to other states, the regulations themselves are clumsy in the extreme, and they fail to achieve what we thought was one of the main objectives, to encourage the prompt captive breeding of the initial wild-caught stock. The stupid and costly 'Farmer's Licence', and the restriction on sale of progeny only to dealers, ensured that breeding became an expensive and impractical proposition for most people.

The system has been built entirely around the notion that NO REPTILE KEEPER IN WA should expect to be trusted by the department (unfortunately this attitude appears to be infecting regimes in other states). If you have a serious interest in reptiles in WA, you should expect to be heavily scrutinised by that bureaucracy for the duration of your involvement.

Having said all that, I had a history of about 40 years of reptile involvement in that state, as a keeper in the days prior to 1970, then a Reg 16 holder for a period of time before the regulations came into force, and as a dealer for some time before moving to NSW. I had no trouble with CALM, (except being warned about not disposing of the bodies of dead animals before being granted permission by the Dept), I simply found the requirements for 3-monthly returns (for Reg 16, Keepers and Dealers) onerous and frankly quite pointless.

The thing that these Departments, Australia-wide, just don't get is that more prescriptive they make the laws, the more people will just say 'stuff it, I'll do what I want to do without getting into the system.' So many people have said to me, about the proposed Reptile Keepers Code of Practice here in NSW, that they'll simply get rid of their licensed animals, drop out of the system and continue to fly under the radar. I don't blame them if the Code heralds a new and more intrusive approach from the Department.

Sorry for rambling... this is a topic that deserves a thread of its own.

Jamie.
 
I know I have mentioned this before in other topics, but I am curious how each state can actually restrict or impose bans on import and export of anything including wildlife to another state without breaking one of the founding conditions of the document they all signed when the Commonwealth of Australia was born back in 1901. I am sure there is a condition that requires free and unfettered trade of all goods and livestock between each of the Federated states. Obviously each State legislature has taken advice on how to get around this "Constitutional" requirement, and feel quite happy and comfortable in the way they continue to restrict trade in captive reptiles.

My thoughts would be that for WA keepers particularly there may be enough annoyance and or resistance to the onerous requirements imposed by WA DSE, to think about engaging a constitutional lawyer, for advice on whether he thinks there is a case for arguement through the High Court that the Laws in WA are unconstitutional. The right advice may be gained in a once off consultation that may only cost a few hundred dollars. I know this could be difficult because how do you engage a lawyer to look into this matter and at the same time try to maintain a working relationship with WA DSE.

Several people in the past have suggested reasons why the requirements of the Constitution can be ignored when it comes to trading captive bred reptiles across state borders, but I am yet to be convinced that the systems used by all Australian State governments are not flawed in some way regarding this matter. I guess the first step is to seek independent advice from qualified individuals and if the advice is that there is some arguement that the process may be unconstitutional then be prepared to stand together united as private keepers, amateur herpetologists, breeders etc and test the matter through the courts.

If someone has some qualified knowledge that there is no constitutional infringement or that the infringement is negated by the enactment of a further piece of legislation negating the effects of the "free trade between states" condition in the constitution, I would love to hear about it as I can then put this matter to bed for my myself.

Cheers

Mark
 
Longirostis, we've been looking into a few of these legal issues, and have been advised that the researched opinion of a constitutional lawyer will likely cost between $5000 - $10000. I'd say that chances of success, if many of these issues were examined by competent legal minds, would be high. The constraints placed on keepers in WA, for example, restricting their right to sell their captive bred progeny only to dealers, is an ureasonable restriction on their right to trade freely, and forces them into a stuation of significant disadvantage.

But who's prepared to risk it, then the ensuing victimisation by a very vindictive DEC?

Jamie
 
I agree the victimisation issue could be a serious problem. I was not aware that people had looked into the matter as far as you seem to. A well researched opinion from a good constitutional lawyer will not doubt cost every bit of what you say. But they should be able to give an off the cuff yes it has merits or no don't even go there you will be wasting your money opinion before they go down the track of spending too much money. I know these guys do not come cheap and $10,000 is probably only going to cover a couple of days research by these guys, but if it has legs then there is the potential for herpers in every state to band together through their respective Herp societies/groups etc and raise the funds to actually test the matter through the courts.
 
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