Jungles and Fatty Liver Disease

[Slateman]

craig you written: It is also my observation, that most snakes grow to almost adult size in the first 2 or 3 years of there life. this is when the snake requires the most food to sustain this growth (in proportion). As the snakes growth rates slow down the food amounts can be reduced in size. I belive that its this time in a snakes life when they can be overfeed and become overweight. Basically, it is very hard to overfeed a young growing snake kept at good temps, it will simply grow like a weed (which we consider healthy in all other animals). As growth rates slow, and the snake reaches adult size, its requirements become less, and then the keeper much watch what is fed.

Craig my stand on this issue is exactly same as yours. First 3 years of snake life all the food is going to growing. I would reduce feeding after when snake is adult.
I understand that many people will have different opinion on this subject. I am not saying that my opinion is definitely the right one.

 

[gudang]

i totally agree with you craig. i think it only becomes an issue as the snake approaches adult size or around 2 years then feeding should be less regular.

 

[gudang]

simon what do you mean by you saw an overweight olive python lay 25 eggs? i thought that would be a fairly typical clutch size not overly large or small

 

[Artie]

Must be different with humans!
Why do we have fat little kids, if it?s all supposed to be going into growth?
Just wondering!

 

[gudang]

of course its different with humans. snakes eat predominantly one thing in captivity whereas a fat kid eats whatever he likes, usually crap food that makes him fat.

 

[Artie]

Just because they eat predominantly one thing in captivity , doesn?t mean they can?t get too much of it.
Don?t think we see as many fat snakes in the wild, as we can see in captivity.
Anyway it?s just my opinion and some will and some won?t agree.

 

[Simon_Archibald]

:arrow:

 

[bigguy]

Craig, great post and spot on in nearly every detail. Don't let the Armchair experts tell you your wrong.

In the USA and Europe they don't refer to powerfeeding or pumping. They simply call it feeding. They just simulate a good breeding season. No wonder they are so far in front of most of us Austalians when it comes to reptile breeding. I agree with your comments. Most people do underfeed most of their reptiles and they wonder why they do not breed.

I feed all my juveniles a few times a week. Are they fat. No way. As long as you keep them warm all food goes into growth, not fat. As it was stated they grow like weeds. Does it make them unhealthy, no way again. I have been doing it for over 15 years and mine are all fine.

Its when the young obtain adult size, that you must cut the food back, otherwise they will get obese. There is no denying it. Obese snakes normally do not breed and are very unhealthy with short life spans.

Artie, I read your post with some amusement. People often compare themselves to reptiles. What most people do not understand mammals(including humans) and birds grow according to age. No ammount of food will make these grow any faster. It just gets stored as fat. Reptiles and fish however do not grow by age. Their growth rate is determined by food intake. A lot of food, fast growth. A little food, slow growth.

As for BHP's and Fatty Liver Disease. I was the first to pick this up about 20 years ago. I would feed all my snakes the biggest rats I could find. Of course, Jumbo size rats are over half pure fat. BHP's mainly eat reptiles in the wild, ergo, their livers are not acustumed to injesting fat. I lost several before we realised this. I let all the known breeders of the day know of my findings back then, but these days it is common knowledge.

Any species of Python could get Fatty Liver Disease if it is constantly feed fatty food or is very obese for long periods and is not allowed to cool down over winter to use some of their fat.

Regards
Bob

 

[bigguy]

Simon, again I find you bagging me. The only difference no names this time.

I have a question for you Simon. Do you work for me or something or have you spent much time at my residence?????. You quote I have lots of problems with my collection because it is too big and I overfeed. I am not aware of any problem with my collection. Its one of the healthiest collections you would ever see. Why do you think I breed more then anyone in Australia. Read the replies to your last bagging thread of me. People from all over quoted how good it was.

You quoted last time how I personally spoilt the SOFAR expo, yet the president of the club said I made the day, booking me again for the next show.

After you comment on you can not feed BHP's large items it just shows how little you really know. You can feed them rabbits if you like. Just make sure they are lean and not carrying much fat.

You also stated snakes that are grown fast by overfeeding are unhealthy and die young. Yet all of my snakes that appeared in the famous Python book by Dave Barker, whose pictures were taken over 10 year ago are still alive today. And there were nearly 30 of those.

You then went on to state snakes grown fast may breed earlier, but after a few years their clutch sizes and the amount of viable eggs lessons. What a load of @&*$. Please show my the scientific journal you read that in. I would love to read it myself. Or was it just you expert opinion again.
I have been breeding some of my Pythons continully for a least 15 years and I have never seen I thing that you mentioned.

Also, even after the president of SOFAR said all of my animals were in magnificent condition when he replied to your last bagging of me, again here you are telling people how unhealthy and obese you thought it was.
That Olive is in prime breeding condition. Did you know that female pythons can use up to a third of their body weight to produce a cluch of eggs, not to mention the weight they lose over the Winter fasting. They need to be heavier then the males to be able to produce. I bet you Simon, contact me in say 4 or 6 years time and I reckon she will still be breeding then.

Lets compare references Simon. I will go first. I have been keeping reptiles now for 43 years. I have studied them in the field for about 20 years all across the top of Australia. I have been breeding for 20 years and have bred about every species I have every held. I have world firsts in numerous breedings. I have one of the biggest and best setups in the country. I am arguably the biggest breeder of reptiles in the country. I run a reptile display business. I win countless awards for my shows. I give lectures to herp societies. I am used as a consultant on breeding by many zoos and parks across Australia.

No Simon it's your turn. Please give everyone a rundown of your experience. Try how long you have been keeping, what species and how many succsesful breedings you have had. It must be pretty impressive for you to critise me and my collection WHICH YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN every chance you get.

Oh, buy the way Simon, have you ever heard of Slander. When you start to put down my business with NO proof whatsoever with what you are saying you could find yourself in court.

We await you great reference
Bob

 

[Ramsayi]

Onya Bob,
Don't worry about Simon too much plus a few others on here.Most of us know they are full of crap.
Its all too easy to be a self proclaimed herp expert sitting behind a keyboard.
Its as you say you have the runs on the board.I know whos advice I would listen to.

cheers

 

[bigguy]

Simon,

One other point I would like to raise. If its so unhealthy for snakes to overfeed and breed young, why arn't all the Water Pythons at Fog Dam near Darwin dead. Heres a place that nearly duplicates a captive situation. Constant heating and enormous food supplies.

Read Rick Shines paper on their studies. They actually found Water Pythons to be growing so fast with the abundant food and heat that they breed at 18 months of age. Do they only eat every now and again. No way. They grow so fast because they eat whenever they can. Did they find that the population was unhealthy due to overfeeding. No again.

All snakes in the wild will eat EVERY chance they get, unless they are allready bloated with food or about to shed. They can go long periods without food as you said, but its not of their choice. Its only if they can not find any food, like in a drought situation. If the foods there , they will eat it and grow fast.

In captivity, there is no magic formular for growth. It is simply feeding food. They can only grow as fast as nature has allowed them. And many grow that fast in the wild if the food is there. Fog Dam is a perfect example

Bob

 

[iluvsmyreptiles]

Amen

 

[Slateman]

simon written I know of one supposedly "reputable breeder" on the Central Coast who has a lot of problems because his collection is too large and he power feeds his animals.

I do not understand Simon why you starting this type of accusation again. I would suggest that you do not know him at all. You mabe would like to know him, but your knowledge is not great enough to brush the shoulder with him.
Just leave the bloke along, you said what you wanted to say in your posts, NO NEED TO START FIGHTS by saying things like this.

Ps. I do not think that he have any problems as far as his collection is concern. What is all this crap?
He is our member and we are happy to share his wisdom here, no need to boil against him by hinting.
consider this as warning please. Your post was unnecessary unfriendly. You could say your view with out pointing to anybody.

 

[anothersnakeguy]

Craig,
Thanks, I am hoping she developes more yellow as she gets older, she is 1.5 years. At what age do JCPs typically develop their highest color contrast or most yellow? The breeder I got this snake from said it was an average specimen because of the black spotting in the yellow pattern, in the USA breeders are striving to create JCPs with very distinct bright yellow and black patterns with very little or no mixing of the colors. Any snakes that have spotting or color bleeding like mine can be had for a reasonable price around $125 US, they are still beautiful although not perfect or of breeder quality. I wanted a friendly attractive pet without spending alot of money, that's why I chose this snake. I have attached a picture of a local distributor's breeding stock that I think is a great JCP specimen and hope my young one looks like eventually. I am in the United States.

Byron

 

[craig23]

Byron, i dontknow alot about jungles in particular so perhaps someone else can answer your question on when it will reach its adult colouring.

You guys in the USA breed some amazing colours no doubt, and its heading that way in australia as well. who knows what the future will bring. Goodluck with them