Live feeding...

[FAY]

OR read the site rules!

Perhaps there needs to be an even more basic thread for newbies that is sent to their inbox the moment they join, making it very clear what is accepted and what is not. Obviously many newbs - to the site and the hobby - just don't bother to use the search function or look at the stickies....

 

[Elapidae1]

yes but is Jen speaking in regard to site rules or live feeding?

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

I don't know if some of the comments in this thread and the other are directed at me - but first up. Yes, I do cull my mice humanely, in the way that I was taught by both experienced personnel and a vet at the job I had in a mouse house, apparently I was so good at it that it became my main job, as well as my job to teach others the technique. I use cervical dislocation which causes instant death. I never asked about the OP (other thread) about their job, i never mentioned their job, only the 'spiritual training' that apparently allowed them to allow torture to a live animal. I'd say the brutality of nature is far more spiritual than you could comprehend. Judging from this response that is. By torture, i not only mean the suffocation (stupid nature!) and bones being crushed "melodramatic" does not even begin to address this comment...if the snake takes the live prey, but also the fact that a live fuzzy was caused to be away from its mother for any length of time - this in my mind is horrible cruelty. Have you seen what Pseudonaja textilis can with a den of mice? Many would argue that keeping wide ranging,un-tameable (not sure if that's even a word but it fits), mostly wild animals in boxes is cruel and torturous,just not you or I eh? So much more to say but really don't feel like an infraction. Perhaps there needs to be an even more basic thread for newbies that is sent to their inbox the moment they join, making it very clear what is accepted and what is not. Like being ignorant to fellow users...just an example...Obviously many newbs - to the site and the hobby - just don't bother to use the search function or look at the stickies....

Slagging aside, perhaps a more constructive use of your time would be to do up a short video on "Cervical Dislocation". I, for one, would love to learn this method of euthanasia as I have never seen it (never searched for it either) in action, and would love to learn the process. As it is considered one of the most humane methods of dispatching prey items, it most certainly would be a handy reference for "noobs" and experienced keepers alike! Far more useful and accepted than sanctimonious insult slinging!

 

[Jen]

So I'm ignorant, sanctimonious, melodramatic and uncomprehending. Awesome. At least I am not under the delusion that my captive snakes are out in nature.... Oh, and the video you mentioned has been discussed with mods and made - I just chose not to go any further because of people like you who would probably report me or the site to the RSPCA.

 

[K3nny]

and... the flame war continues

seriously, what was the point of making this thread again? Giving constructive advice is fine, but when you start bagging out newbies for being what they are (newbies), then you've got to question the motivation of said posters.

That said, neither is there justification to point out/single out posters who posted what was believed to be less than constructive advice, how is that any different than what they did? This is just another cycle, and evidently this thead has gone downhill as a result of that.

As once stated somewhere on the internets, arguing on the internet is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still... well you get the point.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

So I'm ignorant, sanctimonious, melodramatic and uncomprehending. Awesome. At least I am not under the delusion that my captive snakes are out in nature lol, I hear ya, so many people think that a few plastic vines and a bit of dowel will fool their animals into believing it is up the Cape. .... Oh, and the video you mentioned has been discussed with mods and made - I just chose not to go any further because of people like you incorrect who would probably report me or the site to the RSPCA.

You obviously took my post personally. Merely a few helpful suggestions mixed with awareness raising. If you had read this and my previous posts, I am somewhat of an advocate for live feeding when necessary, therefore, my views are as likely to get me "reported" as a video depicting the aforementioned euth. method. Please do share it, there is a sticky for CO2 chambers, CD is as or more effective!

 

[ingie]

I absolutely understand what the OP from first thread means about being able to admire and watch nature do it's thing but not being able to personally kill an animal. If you spend your whole life loving and admiring animals (especially wild animals), and are new to the world of captive reptiles, you can prepare yourself mentally for doing the deed all you want, but to actually kill that first little animal with your own hands is a big thing. I'm all for growing your own food/meat animals/pet food animals etc - would LOVE to live on a self sustainable farm and do as much of that for myself as possible. However, the first time and many times after, that I culled my own baby rats for snake food, I cried and felt like a murdering monster for ages. Felt like I was up there with Lord V and should be going out making horcruxes lol. I've since toughened up and have about 100 rodents breeding I'm not a vegan and don't have delusions that I don't already play part in the deaths of lots of other critters so I can eat etc. But killing with your own hands, you can't judge someone for being unable to do it.

I don't find CO2 chambers any less cruel than live feeding. That is why I prefer instant methods such as Jen advocates. I am not opposed to live feeding when necessary either. The animals that end up on our plates and feet go through a lot worse and we keep on with that......

 

[mad_at_arms]

“Come, children let us shut up the box and the puppets, for our play is played out.”
:- William Makepeace Thackeray

 

[Leeloofluff]

Sorry but I disagree, just because one person has already pointed out that live feeding is wrong does not mean everyone else does not have the right to express and reinforce their opinion. What if only one person spoke out against war, or whaling or pollution. Sometimes it takes many voices and views to get the message through. Every time I see a thread on live feeding, or any topic involving cruelty to animals I cannot sit by without expressing myself. I understand we should not be hammering into newbies, but they need to be made aware that it is wrong.as long as the get the right advice in the end

 

[waruikazi]

If we are talking about animal welfare/cruelty etc. What is worse?

Restraining a snake a couple times each week and pushing peices of food down to its stomach, Or

Feeding a live prey item to it.

 

[Leeloofluff]

I would say force feeding is far less cruel than live feeding. If the food item is small and you are gentle with the animal, it's a fairly simple process. I would never live feed...ever..... There are other avenues I would rather chase than put an animal through that experience. I think we all know we all have such strong opinions on this topic. Those who are pro live feeding all the time, those who go for it when their snake won't feed, and those who will never do it. We all feel strongly about our view. I will continue to be disgusted by the human race for the things we do to animals regardless of what anyone else tries to get me to believe. Personally I would love nothing more for humans to quickly die out. Animals have far greater rights to be here than we do. Is my opinion relevant to this post? I think so. An I dont care if everyone here flames me, I really don't. I'm saying what I believe in

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Sorry but I disagree, just because one person has already pointed out that live feeding is wrong does not mean everyone else does not have the right to express and reinforce their opinion. What if only one person spoke out against war, or whaling or pollution. Sometimes it takes many voices and views to get the message through. Every time I see a thread on live feeding, or any topic involving cruelty to animals I cannot sit by without expressing myself. I understand we should not be hammering into newbies, but they need to be made aware that it is wrong.as long as the get the right advice in the end

If someone has already made the point clear before you had a chance to climb onto your soapbox, then all you are doing is making pointless noise to satisfy yourself. So instead of being a learning exercise for the person who needs guidance, it becomes much more about being a feelgood exercise for you and the "gang" of slammers. If you have something useful to contribute, by all means say your piece, but joining the chorus of self-righteous critics is unproductive at best, and in the worst case, may harden the attitude of the target of your criticism.

Jamie

 

[waruikazi]

I wonder what your experience is with force feeding?

I suppose you could call it a fairly simple process, but that doesn't necesarily make it easy or stress free for the animal in question. Or for the keeper. If it was you wouldn't have animals regurging after being forced and you wouldn't have animals dieing from the stress of it all. All of which has happened to animals i have owned.

I would say force feeding is far less cruel than live feeding. If the food item is small and you are gentle with the animal, it's a fairly simple process. I would never live feed...ever..... There are other avenues I would rather chase than put an animal through that experience. I think we all know we all have such strong opinions on this topic. Those who are pro live feeding all the time, those who go for it when their snake won't feed, and those who will never do it. We all feel strongly about our view. I will continue to be disgusted by the human race for the things we do to animals regardless of what anyone else tries to get me to believe. Personally I would love nothing more for humans to quickly die out. Animals have far greater rights to be here than we do. Is my opinion relevant to this post? I think so. An I dont care if everyone here flames me, I really don't. I'm saying what I believe in

 

[Leeloofluff]

I have had animals regurgitate after being force fed, but less and less each time. I currently am force feeding a blonde spotted I got off a Person who did not feel comfortable doing it. It was very frail and pretty close to death. I have force fed it to the point where it is putting on condition. Other animals I force fed a few times now eat with no assistance. It was stressful on me then first few times but I turn the stress into concern, and keep a close eye on the animals being forced fed.

Furthermore getting on my " soapbox" doesn't satisfy me at all. It makes me furiouse. And I'm not getting behind a bunch of people in chorus, this is MY opinion.

 

[Octane]

Is this thread about live feeding or is it about highly opinionated persons possibly with more internet posting experience then reptile keeping experience offering advice or opinion??

My question:- What would be more stressfull force feeding for an unspecified amount of time or offer a few live feeds to initiate feeding then switch over to culled when feeding is established???


Play nicely people.

Cheers
Octane

 

[Waterrat]

I have done a lot of force feeding and I can't see how it can be compared to live feeding - two entirely different approaches (from the snake's point of view). In my opinion, stress in snakes and its lasting effect has been largely exaggerated; from what I experienced, stress passes away very quickly. I would also dispute the statement that force feeding is "a fairly simple process". Snakes can wriggle and twist their bodies, crap all over you, some resist opening their mouths, they can bite onto the pinky and "lock" their jaws, so you can't push the food item in or take it out and when you relax your grip, the snake spits it out. Force feeding juveniles can be extremely frustrating for the keeper but not so stressful for the snake. A short while after force feeding, they go about their business as if nothing happened. I have never had snakes regurgitating or dieing as a result of force feeding. Admittedly, some were so stubborn that I ended up euthanising them, you can only force feed for so long. JMO

 

[Mace699]

i have perfect temps in all enclosures, they are all immaculately spotless, my stimmie eats same day and time every fortnight and my beardies do as well. so i therefore believe my keeping techniques are perfect and i challenge anyone to find that they aren't! my stimmie sheds are complete with eyecaps, my youngest beardie is yet to shed and my oldest has shed completely twice in my care..all lizards have UV, clean water, fresh salad, my stimmie has clean water every 2nd day and all reps get an equal amount of 'play time' so i put it to those that would like to analyse my husbandry and keeping techniques to feel free and do that.

This is just your opinion on your Perfect husbandry what makes the temps perfect? and who said a snake notices the difference between being fed at 6 as opposed to 5? undoubtedly sounds like you take great care of them and they are doing very well. Keep in mind though everyone has a different style and whats good for one snake is not nescessarilly ideal for the next. When Jamie has something to say of all people it would probably pay to listen there are not so many people who have as much experience as him. the point he was trying to make though is what gives you the right to attack instead of offering solutions. No doubt the O.P in the other thread has a bit to learn but thats why they came here asking for advice. Clearly they are new and common sense seemed a bit lacking by leaving the mouse in with the snake. But realistically when you are new to it and lack in knowledge with anything it all comes down to trial and error. all he is saying is in the future maybe have a bit more patience and tolerance for those that are still learning the other post could have been dealt with civilly and just explain why it was a bad idea instead of everyone jumping on their back.

 

[ingie]

Play time lol. Everyones opinion of 'perfect' husbandry is different.. My ideal is big outdoor pits and large aviaries with natural surroundings and natural light/heat. Of course I don't have much of this going on but would be nice.. Small indoor enclosures for lizards in particular make me sad on the inside...

 

[mysnakesau]

...... when a snake overpowers a food item properly it is a very quick and clean death.
Nature cannot be bettered by humans.

I would even go as far to say that it is better then gassing or the myriad of other ways i have known of peoples technique for killing rodents.

Live feeding should really only be done by people who know and understand a snakes body language very well. And who will stay and make sure that the food item gets killed.

I am glad you mentioned that it should only be done by people who know and understand the snakes. Trapping a snake and a live animal intended for food, in a box (their enclosure or tub) is not nature. So if you're not prepared to intevene when something goes wrong, then don't even bother attempting it.

I've had wild pythons in my care who wouldn't accept a dead prey but readily accepted a live mouse or something like that. But I couldn't watch The first time I did it I reached in and grabbed the mouse back out before the snake spotted it. Then Jamie mentioned freshly killed so they still kicking, 'smelt' alive? maybe? Far better option for me, than having to resort to live food. But in saying this, if you are going to feed freshly killed, make sure the animal is DEAD. My husband knocked a rat for me once. Looked dead so I popped it into my carpet boy's tank, and just as he spotted it, it jumped up on its feet. Abony got the rat before me and it tried to bite him, but I kept the end of a wooden spoon in its mouth until it was truly dead the 2nd time.

 

[gosia]

Ok so I am gonna put my 2 cents in!!!!! - sorry!!!

I can't belive that this post has turned into world war 3!!!

Whether you like live feeding or not it is your opinion and thats what forums are for - OPINIONS!!!!

No need to jump on someones back and abuse them for doing what you BELIEVE is wrong - in YOUR opinion! There is a nice way of saying things - no need for BOLD LARGE text, after all he did the right thing and asked the EXPERTS on this forum!

Seriously, I love this forum for what it is - a place where newbies can ask questions and get instant answers or solutions to a problem they may have!

I am finding that more and more people that have been here for the whole year think that they are the experts.

Unless you have something important to say and from your own experience and if it is helpful - DO NOT POST!!!! This is not facebook!

Now kids put your toys away and go do something useful - like clean your enclousers!

Cheers