Losing scales after illness HELP

[euphorion]

Over the past few months i have been selling off the larger part of my spotted python collection. One in particular animal, an adult male normal phase, eating, pooping, shedding like clockwork and a pefect handler, went to some new friends of mine as their first snake.

I spent several hours over a few days discussing handling, feeding, cleaning, enclosures, etc. with them to ensure they would be leaving me with enough knowledge to adequately care for this animal that i was passing on to them. I sourced their enclosure and all the related paraphenalia including f10. I also made sure they had access to all the best books by lending them my rather substantial collection of reptile related literature so i'm positive they had the right understanding of what they were getting into. So, healthy snake, new owners, pretty good chance of everything going well yes?

I regularly checked in with them to make sure they were okay and there weren't any problems. After about a month he went into shed, his milk phase lasted about 10 days (i give an approximation here as he wasn't in my care so i don't have the records.) During this time they were doing minimal handling, no feeding, bathing each evening for ten minutes in warmed water, spraying in the morning, regularly cleaning the enlosure, etc. He cleaered up, we all waited for the shed, nothing happened. A few days later it all started to come off in pieces and it was stuck on badly. I went to see him to give them what advice i could (after already recommending Deborah/Melinda at Brisbane Bird and Exotics Vet) to find him puffed up, squishy, dulldullDULL and barely moving. I had him bundled up in a little ball on my lap so i placed him upside down and he didn't even bother trying to right himself. After asking all the questions about his enclosure and temperatures i get it out of them that the house he is living in is a hot-box and stays at about 30C consistently, this seems to be what caused him to stress out and get crook. I strongly recommended they move him to a cooler area of the house to allow him to thermo-regulate although i don't think the took me seriously. Anyway, i gave them the exotics vet phone number and had them call for an appointment straight away telling them he should have bloods done to check for an infection. They saw Deborah that afternoon, had blood taken and were to get the results the next day.

Next day, white blood cells and proteins were well up so needed to go back for anti-biotics. That night i had them bring him back so i could assess his shedding situation and help, managed to get a large amount of it off quite easily. He started his antiobiotics the next day.

Now, to the questions i pose to you all!

Since he started shedding he has been losing lots of heavily pigmented scales. I have done what research i can on this but have yet to find any useful information. Even the vets had no idea and didn't seem overly concerned by it, BUT I AM! His skin in several places has become much lighter through the loss of this pigment, which is really freaking me out. Now, the skin he is losing is slightly thicker in consistency to his normal sheds but is NOT the actual scales, as in, the actual scales themselves remain on his body, but it seems that the colour of the scales is coming off with the old skin. Now we all know sheds do sometimes look pigmented but these scales are just weird. I have acquired some images to share, i hope someone can shed some light on this as i'm really worried that this might be something more sinister and the vets may be overlooking something. By all accounts it is likely to be a response to the poor shed and the infection/stress during the milk phase of his cycle. Looking through my records he wasn't really due for a shed at that time, so i'm thinking it was actually a stress response shed.

Anywho, i'm freaking and can't find any info. He's still on antibiotics and is going back to the vets at the end of his course for a checkup...

HELP!

I suppose i may be over-reacting. Perhaps the paler scales on his back are due to them handling him too roughly during his milk phase and the small individual scales are just coming off like that because they were so firmly adhered to his new skin due to the innapropriate (high) temps during his milk phase? Anyhow, thought this would at least make for an interesting read for some of you!

 

[Helikaon]

itll be due to the stuck shed. damaged and probably had a bit of bacteria or fungus growing between the layers. fix the husbandry and should fix at next shed.

 

[hugsta]

One of the biggest problems we face in herpetoculture is the general lack of knowledge on these issues. There is so little known about snake diseases that everything usually comes under the banner of IBD or OPMV when this is quite often not the case, but there are minimal tests that can be done with accurate results.

The bad shed is not a problem,normally just a dry environment. Is the enclosure glass with a mesh lid? If so, anything you try to increase humidity will just escape through the top. They really don't need bathing and spraying every day if the setup is correct. Try clovering the top and adding a larger water bowl, also moving it to the warm end to help increase constant humidity.

Those scales look like he has brushed up against a hot object like a heat globe or such, so make sure there are no exposed heating items. It doesn't look like anything bad and I would hold of and see what happens with his next slough.

 

[euphorion]

Thanks guys that's what i have been thinking.

Helikaon - that certainly seems like the best explanation given the bloods and the handling during the pre-shed

Hugsta - agreed! And yes, i did try to convince them to get a melamine or wooden enclosure and even called Aaron (snake whisperer for them to see if he had any available) but they were solidly set on that brand (the name of which escapes me) with the glass sides, mesh top, black plastic frame, etc. you all know the ones! i will go and check on his setup personally this weekend to check on the waterbowl, humidity levels, i guess i'll just given them a spare gauge i have and covering the top a little more. didn't think of that one!

as for the brushing up against his heat source, negative possibility on that one, i installed the light cage and double checked it so i know he hasn'r burnt himself. it's top-down installed too so he can't even sit on the light cage itself.

feeling much better already guys! even the vet couldn't offer any advice like this!

Helikaon - this little dude is actually one that you probed for me all those years ago, all grown up!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'd say, from reading this, that the shedding problem is from TOO MUCH moisture/humidity. What is the point of bathing every night for 10 minutes? And then misting every morning? Snakes don't need to be bathed at all (except to remove faeces etc), let alone every evening. When a snake is due to shed, they need to be left alone until the process is complete. I'd say the snake has a skin problem caused by too much moisture.

Jamie.

 

[Waterrat]

I agree. Some keepers are going overboard with spraying, etc. I see it all the time with people keeping greens down south. Although wild reptiles are often exposed to wet and humid conditions for prolonged periods of time, there is a constant air flow in natural habitats. Spraying excessively in a enclosed box with a minimal ventilation is just crazy.

 

[euphorion]

Hi Jamie, that's a very good point!

The bathing and misting was to assist with the shedding, i mist every day but allow them the option of having a decent sized water bowl to bathe in if they so choose. I failed to mention that while a friend of theirs had been handling him he had gotten caught in their belt (i was not present, this is the story i was told) and was roughly pulled backwards which caused some ventrals scales to bend back perpendicularly and did a little bit of damage to the skin. After seeing the scales, and this happened early in the milk phase, i suggested that they bathed him briefly every day with cotten balls soaked in a weak betadine solution as i thought the damage to the scales would cause a problem come his shed. So that would be my fault in recommending something that could, as you suggest, have contributed to excess moisture related problems.

So, no more bathing (kicking myself for that now, seems so obvious!) but will look into the ambient moisture in his enclosure.

Another question, he has not eaten for about five weeks now. He was in great condition before all of this so i'm not worried in the slightest about that but how long should we wait before starting his feeding again? He has another week of antibiotics to go.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Shooshoo, even GTPs don't need misting every day, and some keepers do it only irregularly with their adult snakes. Any other species will suffer seriously compromised health if you wet them continually and keep them in excessive humidity. I NEVER mist any of my carpets, have NEVER misted any Antaresias when I kept them, and if they do have a rough shed (very rare) I put them in a tub of luke-warm water for an hour or two and they come up fine. Handling as the new skin is developing underneath is asking for trouble, if you tear the old, protective skin (as happened here) you create the opportunity for bacteria and fungi to enter the tear and develop between the old and new layers. The constantly moist environment you are forcing on the animal by daily bathing and misting, combined with rough handling, has caused a serious and possibly fatal systemic infection.

Regular misting of anything other than wet-tropics species is likely to do far more harm than good.

Snakes should be kept in a dry enclosure with a bowl of clean water, and they should definitely be left alone as soon as the shedding process begins, and until it is complete. Doing otherwise guarantees trouble at some stage.

Jamie

 

[euphorion]

Jamie, i think it depends on the ambient humidity to say whether or not misting is a requirement. I mist my animals when they are shedding, once when one of my macs didn't get misted at all during his shed cycle he failed to shed his eyecaps and nose plugs. This was during the cold DRY weather in Brisbane. I have never had any problems like that before or since.

I am amazed by the number of private emails and PM responses i have had regarding this thread already, thank you! However, i have literally had people saying 'don't listen to such and such they don't know what they are talking about' and 'i know better than they do'. I'm a little perturbed by the assumptions made by many. Regardless, my understanding of the situation and the circumstances that caused it, coupled with the advice i have recieved so far (and thank you SO much to everyone that has put time and effort into helping me today!) has led me to a chosen course of action and i will stand by it. For those that are interested i am seeing these friends this weekend and will ensure that they fully understand the situation (to the best of my ability, given the great variability in reponses regarding what caused this, what to do about it and just how severe the situation is.)

I realise i also failed to mention that as of a few days ago the snake in question is doing much better. He only had a period of about two days where he was particularly lethargic but now is happily cruising around and active again. So in terms of his curent state, he's okay and i'm sure once the husbandry issues have been addressed he won't have any future problems with his new owners.

The majority of the concerns raised that have failed to make it in to this thread (emails, PM's) have been regarding the cleanliness of the enclosure and the water bowls/humidity issue. Yes i will check on these things, yes i clean my water bowls and give fresh water everyday, i will impress the importance of this upon my friends when i see them although given their situation i'm sure they are already doing this. They use f10 each time they clean the enclosure and it is cleaned as soon as any urates or stools are seen. Newspaper is used as the substrate and furniture consists of hides and branches that can be scrubbed and cleaned easily if not thrown away.

Any more ideas on the timeframe of feeding?

 

[Helikaon]

But you'll be right. How long is the antibiotic course? I usually wait till the course is finished as it can knock the gut flora around. but if its a long course just offer food when ever, it should slam something post shed now that it will feel better with the ab's on board as well. good luck, you can only do your best to guide people in the right direction, after that it is up to them.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Ambient humidity is generally very high in south east Queensland at this time of the year, certainly high enough to ensure that shedding is trouble free in 99% of cases with pythons like Macs and Carpets. I'm glad that you have been inundated with expert advice and that you have chosen a course of action. Still, the most pressing husbandry issue will be the amount of moisture you routinely expose the snakes to, and daily disturbance and physical manhandling during the shed cycle. Experienced keepers just don't do that - it's not necessary, and it may indeed cause great harm.

Jamie

 

[akuji]

But you'll be right. How long is the antibiotic course? I usually wait till the course is finished as it can knock the gut flora around. but if its a long course just offer food when ever, it should slam something post shed now that it will feel better with the ab's on board as well. good luck, you can only do your best to guide people in the right direction, after that it is up to them.

With Regards to the feeding on the antibiotics I was given a course for my spottie and was advised by the Vet to give small feeds during the course weekly to ensure the snake does not decline...

 

[euphorion]

Heli - Two weeks of injections every three days, finishing next Friday (18th March) so will advise them to leave it a week after the last injection. I have already been in contact with them re minimal handling, i'm guessing that with all the excitment of owning their first snake they may have gone overboard with handling not realising even a little bit could do harm.

Thanks everyone!

I'm still standing by my misting during shedding. As stated, the only time i had a problem with my animals was when i failed to mist a mac. Of course providing too much humidity and not enough ventilation is going to cause a problem, but that is an assumption in and of itself saying that 'if there is not enough ventilation' etc. is it not?

To those PM's i have not replied to personally; thank you! I do hope this thread has helped other keepers, not just myself.

 

[Helikaon]

Yep that sounds as good a plan as any. Must be a reasonably long course. a shourt course in my eyes would be anything between 7-14 days worth. but it also depends of condition of the snake. Its not till you get a sick reptile that they start to lose weight quickly so in these cases meals would be fine. But it msut also be remembered that most snakes requiring antibiotics are not well and therefore anorexic anyways and offering food is jsut another stress to add to the situation. your vet will give you the best plan for your snake as an individual case.


with regarding to the misting. i do aggree with pythoninfinite. Shooshoo, I live near you and you would have more humidity where you are then where i am further west. and it is deffinitely not needed to mist or soak normal animals coming up to shed. Although i certainly will adivse anyone with a snake that will be expecting a difficult shed to soak the animal once the eyes have gone from milky to clear for say 10 mins once a night, towel dried and then placed back into a dry enclosure. This will not cause a shedding problem but will assist beautifully if you are expecting stuck shed. for example damaged scales, might have over dry ventral scales, burns, wounds or the animals may just be ill which means they dont usually shed at all and it just adds to the problem. This also helps keep and ill snake hydrated as well. But overall for healthy normal snakes i do nothing and i have had no shed problems in any of my pythons.

just read your post above, i see nothign wrong with a bit of misting just before shedding, i would only do it in the period after the eyes have gone clear again. and make sure the substrate does not stay damp.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'm still standing by my misting during shedding. As stated, the only time i had a problem with my animals was when i failed to mist a mac.

Of course you must do whatever your experiences tell you is correct, but most experienced keepers would tell you it's not necessary. I don't get the daily bathing thing though - snakes about to shed in the wild hide away until they come out to shed - why do you think they should be bathed? 99% of captive reptile health problems can be related to incorrect husbandry or enclosure environmental parameters - temperature and humidity being the most important. The epidermis of a snake is almost impervious to water, that's how they survive in the wild when it doesn't rain for months. The successful shedding process is almost entirely a result of sufficient tissue hydration, which is a result of water ingestion by drinking. A snake which is well hydrated and otherwise healthy won't need soaking or misting, with the obvious exceptions of highly tropical species such as GTPs.

Jamie

 

[$NaKe PiMp]

wow,you must have a special anteresia,the likes never seen before in captive husbandry that requires special constant misting and bathing in order for it to perform a normal function that no other anteresia has problems with normally.
why dont you just keep your snake in a bucket of water 100% of the time

 

[Mace699]

wow,you must have a special anteresia,the likes never seen before in captive husbandry that requires special constant misting and bathing in order for it to perform a normal function that no other anteresia has problems with normally.
why dont you just keep your snake in a bucket of water 100% of the time

Hardly helpful or necessary $NaKePiMp. ShooShoo's admitted and accepted that this is part of the cause of the snakes problem and was asking for useful advice on a solution not to be ridiculed. if you arent willing share useful advice why bother saying anything.

 

[euphorion]

Although i certainly will adivse anyone with a snake that will be expecting a difficult shed to soak the animal once the eyes have gone from milky to clear for say 10 mins once a night, towel dried and then placed back into a dry enclosure. This will not cause a shedding problem but will assist beautifully if you are expecting stuck shed. for example damaged scales, might have over dry ventral scales, burns, wounds or the animals may just be ill which means they dont usually shed at all and it just adds to the problem. This also helps keep and ill snake hydrated as well. But overall for healthy normal snakes i do nothing and i have had no shed problems in any of my pythons.
just read your post above, i see nothign wrong with a bit of misting just before shedding, i would only do it in the period after the eyes have gone clear again. and make sure the substrate does not stay damp.

That was exactly my reasoning, being that he had damaged scales pre-shed. Given that that part of the shed came off well i presume that it was okay. Just a shame that the original infection caused by the consistenly high temperatures was exacerbated by the bathing, frustrating!

wow,you must have a special anteresia,the likes never seen before in captive husbandry that requires special constant misting and bathing in order for it to perform a normal function that no other anteresia has problems with normally.
why dont you just keep your snake in a bucket of water 100% of the time

Contructive criticism is great, however, that was a marvelously idiotic comment to make. It just shows how narrow minded and judgemental you are. You might like to know that a few people have quoted you in their communication with me, none of it was pleasant. It's people like you, snake pimp, that give this forum a bad name and turn people away from asking for advice for fear of being ridiculed.

 

[$NaKe PiMp]

haha i wouldnt take anything too seriously shoo shoo,actually i feel like a drunk person thats wandered up to a a table of people at a bar who are having a serious conversation and ruined the dynamics of the discussion lol
please continue unencumbered by my wit FAIL.

my little bit i would like to add on a more serious note is we have to be careful in our husbandry, with the down side of providing excessive moisture being the possibility of leading to either health problems such as scale rot,or respiratory infections,especially in species that occur in mainlydry inland conditions.
I m sure though if your attending the animal everyday you should pick up on any problems like that, but there the signs to look out for.
I have a water python who can have shedding issues if the right ammount of moisture isnt ,availble when sloughing,but when i was the carer for a large collection of Anteresia during a research study i found no sloughing difficulties with just a bowl of water to supply humidity.

 

[euphorion]

Fair call

Unfortunately i cannot check on him everyday, being that he isn't my animal and the new owners live a fair distance away from me. They have sorted out the majority of the issues already, moving the enclosure to a cooler and quiet room of the house, ensuring everything is super clean and are going to stop handling him until he sheds out okay. Will withhold food until a week after the last injection. I called them this morning and he is looking very happy and cruising around his enclosure.

Oh they are also going to purchase a new enclosure for him, melamine or such. In the short term they are using mdf to cover the glass sides for better temperature management and once he is no longer using the tank it will make a fine insect display as they are insect crazy!

Will update things as i hear them.

Thanks again everyone, you're the best!