my custom gtp enclosure

[Pythoninfinite]

Actually Chondros do better with fluctuating humidity, as they would encounter in the wild. During the dry season in their natural habitat the humdity can be very low for weeks. It's a myth that they need constant very high humidity, and it can lead to skin problems if they can't "dry out" most of the time.

Whilst the enclosure looks great from a human perspective, the water reservoir will become a huge bacterial soup as soon as the snake drops faecal matter into it, especially as you say the water is heated. Once the rocks become coated with a film of bacteria, you'll never be able to remove the fecal bacteria from its drinking water.

This was always the problem with Stein enclosures - they may look OK but the maintenance is huge and hygiene is impossible to maintain. If you had 3000 litres of water it may be a different story, but a decent snake crap in a small amount of water like that, especially warmed to improve the breeding of bacteria...

Jamie

 

[herp.derp]

I would be be putting vines etc in branches. Gtps like cover, they like the camouflage and protection of foliage. Great to view it like it is but its very exposed, otherwise nice tank. ( cover it up with blanket at night helps to preseve heat.)

there is a climbing plant which has been placed at the base of one of the branches. it should double its size within a month and create adequate cover over the branch

Looks fantastic. How are you heating it?

standard infrared head lamps

Looks fantastic but there are few things fundamentally wrong.

care to elaborate then?

 

[herp.derp]

Actually Chondros do better with fluctuating humidity, as they would encounter in the wild. During the dry season in their natural habitat the humdity can be very low for weeks. It's a myth that they need constant very high humidity, and it can lead to skin problems if they can't "dry out" most of the time.

Whilst the enclosure looks great from a human perspective, the water reservoir will become a huge bacterial soup as soon as the snake drops faecal matter into it, especially as you say the water is heated. Once the rocks become coated with a film of bacteria, you'll never be able to remove the fecal bacteria from its drinking water.

This was always the problem with Stein enclosures - they may look OK but the maintenance is huge and hygiene is impossible to maintain. If you had 3000 litres of water it may be a different story, but a decent snake crap in a small amount of water like that, especially warmed to improve the breeding of bacteria...

Jamie

the branches have been placed to try and best avoid this happening

 

[Trimeresurus]

Looks really good, I like it a lot.

But from a health perspective, I imagine heated water would have the humidity always sitting really high. As Jamie said, this can lead to problems just as easy in chondros as any other, a wet/drying off cycle should me maintained.

Also can the snake get out of the water? Don't assume GTPs won't crawl down from their perches at night and go for a swim.

Sucks to hear all this I know but nice tanks don't always mean best for the snake.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Snakes with a high water intake pass far more water than wild snakes which rarely drink from large bodies of water - that liquid together with even a small amount of fecal matter in the water, will seed the tank with undesirable and potentially pathogenic bacteria.

There seems to be a belief that if a snake has a (slightly) higher occasional need for humidity, that as much humidity as is absolutely possible is even better. This is wrong. In the wild chondros get wet, they dry out... they get wet... they dry out, and for a large part of the year they have no rain whatsoever. They are exposed to breezes and moving air. Set up like this, the tank has almost no chance of escaping becoming a dank, fungal fug. Most Chondro keepers mist once or twice a week, and maybe a bit more often pre-shed, and importantly they let them dry out in between.

As I said, it looks great, but is probably far from ideal in terms of snake husbandry.

Jamie

 

[herp.derp]

Looks really good, I like it a lot.

But from a health perspective, I imagine heated water would have the humidity always sitting really high. As Jamie said, this can lead to problems just as easy in chondros as any other, a wet/drying off cycle should me maintained.

Also can the snake get out of the water? Don't assume GTPs won't crawl down from their perches at night and go for a swim.

Sucks to hear all this I know but nice tanks don't always mean best for the snake.

well the purpose of this thread was also to get feedback and suggestions. i appreciate the constructive comments
how long should the periods be for wet/dry cycles? the misting system can be turned off to allow the humidity to drop to around 50-60%

the snake should be able to pretty easily get out of the water, though i might even add a couple branches in the water leading to the land, just to be certain

 

[Justdragons]

I run a full glass viv for my water dragons and have no problem with heat loss. temps change a little with the seasons but i prefer that. i think it gives them a more natural habitat. Im in Adelaide and its cold as hell here atm. lol

congrats on a nice viv, you using a canister filter?

 

[herp.derp]

Snakes with a high water intake pass far more water than wild snakes which rarely drink from large bodies of water - that liquid together with even a small amount of fecal matter in the water, will seed the tank with undesirable and potentially pathogenic bacteria.

There seems to be a belief that if a snake has a (slightly) higher occasional need for humidity, that as much humidity as is absolutely possible is even better. This is wrong. In the wild chondros get wet, they dry out... they get wet... they dry out, and for a large part of the year they have no rain whatsoever. They are exposed to breezes and moving air. Set up like this, the tank has almost no chance of escaping becoming a dank, fungal fug. Most Chondro keepers mist once or twice a week, and maybe a bit more often pre-shed, and importantly they let them dry out in between.

As I said, it looks great, but is probably far from ideal in terms of snake husbandry.

Jamie

thanks for the comments. the top of the tank is open to allow air to flow in and out. would some type of fan help the situation?

 

[herp.derp]

I run a full glass viv for my water dragons and have no problem with heat loss. temps change a little with the seasons but i prefer that. i think it gives them a more natural habitat. Im in Adelaide and its cold as hell here atm. lol

congrats on a nice viv, you using a canister filter?

thanks mate
yep using a canister filter for the water

 

[OldestMagician]

If the water can be drained I see no reason for dangerous bacteria to become a problem. Treat the bottom area like a proper fish tank, spot clean, perhaps do 50% water changes once a week and I think it will work out well.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You won't need misters at all if you have the water - it's just overkill. Personally I'd get rid of the water, that will be a constant source of problems in the longer run. I understand it is probably a primary feature of the enclosure, but as far as maintaining snake health goes, it's a bad idea. The only way it could work is if you have a constant high through-flow outside into a biological filter to be cleaned then back into the tank, but even that could compromise the health of the snake.

I mist my greens about once a week, and maybe if I'm expecting them to shed, I'll keep them a bit more humid by misting at that time. That is quite sufficient. The "wet tropics" are only wet for about 5 months of the year, and even then it's not raining 24/7.

Jamie

 

[Pythoninfinite]

If the water can be drained I see no reason for dangerous bacteria to become a problem. Treat the bottom area like a proper fish tank, spot clean, perhaps do 50% water changes once a week and I think it will work out well.

If a snake has a crap in its water bowl and it's been in a warm enclosure for a few hours before you notice it, would you just tip it out and fill with fresh water? Or would you scrub it clean and maybe disinfect it before refilling it? The very best you can do in a tank like that is empty the water and refill it - you can't take the rocks out and scrub them to get rid of the fecal bacterial film without disrupting the whole thing... A snake is going to dump a huge amount of material into the water in one hit. A MUCH larger volume of water is needed to make these things truly workable.

There was a notion, years go, that chondros could be best kept over water... it never took off because it doesn't work unless you have a lot of space, a lot of water and a veritable forest of living plant material to absorb the nitrogenous wastes. That enclosure could work for a very small chondro, hatchling~6months, but that's about the max.

Jamie

 

[CptLici]

You won't need misters at all if you have the water - it's just overkill. Personally I'd get rid of the water, that will be a constant source of problems in the longer run. I understand it is probably a primary feature of the enclosure, but as far as maintaining snake health goes, it's a bad idea. The only way it could work is if you have a constant high through-flow outside into a biological filter to be cleaned then back into the tank, but even that could compromise the health of the snake.

I mist my greens about once a week, and maybe if I'm expecting them to shed, I'll keep them a bit more humid by misting at that time. That is quite sufficient. The "wet tropics" are only wet for about 5 months of the year, and even then it's not raining 24/7.

Jamie

You obviously haven't been to Tully
Monthly Rainfall - 032042 - Bureau of Meteorology

 

[James_Scott]

You are going to get differing reports from people that keep snakes to people that keep frogs and then people that keep fish. I personally have a similar set up for my keelback snakes. Admittedly they crap far less than gtps but the same issues are evident with a large body of water being filtered by a canister filter. To start with the health of the plants can be improved by only watering them with the water inside the enclosure. They will filter out the nitrites/nitrates which will fertilise the plants and improve the water quality when it filters back through. The water flow should be increased by using a large canister filter and using a larger than needed bulkhead. This will cycle the water much quicker through the filter removing nasties before they have a chance to fester. The canister filter will have good bacteria in it that will cope with most of it. You will get a good idea of the quality of water by putting in some tropical fish that are more prone to health issues if the water quality is not up to scratch. I have no had any issues with my setup and only ever change the water in the canister filter once a month. Evaporation takes care of the rest and I keep the level up with around 8 litres of water a week to refill it. All of my plants, fish (which constantly breed) and snakes are very healthy and growing at alarming rates. This is a relatively new concept for Australian Herpetology and there are some forums overseas that are a better source of info. PM me for details.

 

[RedFox]

You obviously haven't been to Tully
Monthly Rainfall - 032042 - Bureau of Meteorology

Either has a wild green tree python. lol. Tully still has a good four to five months of dryish weather. Because the environment has adapted to get lots of rain it doesn't take all that long for things to dry out. Humidity easily would get to under 60% after a couple of weeks of dry.

As for the enclosure you could remove the water add a bio substrate and plant out the bottom. If you google living vivariums there are stacks of ideas online, especially if you look at dendroboard forum. If you want multiple animals living together you could try adding green tree frogs with your GTP, or add some insects.

 

[BeZaKa]

You are going to get differing reports from people that keep snakes to people that keep frogs and then people that keep fish. I personally have a similar set up for my keelback snakes. Admittedly they crap far less than gtps but the same issues are evident with a large body of water being filtered by a canister filter. To start with the health of the plants can be improved by only watering them with the water inside the enclosure. They will filter out the nitrites/nitrates which will fertilise the plants and improve the water quality when it filters back through. The water flow should be increased by using a large canister filter and using a larger than needed bulkhead. This will cycle the water much quicker through the filter removing nasties before they have a chance to fester. The canister filter will have good bacteria in it that will cope with most of it. You will get a good idea of the quality of water by putting in some tropical fish that are more prone to health issues if the water quality is not up to scratch. I have no had any issues with my setup and only ever change the water in the canister filter once a month. Evaporation takes care of the rest and I keep the level up with around 8 litres of water a week to refill it. All of my plants, fish (which constantly breed) and snakes are very healthy and growing at alarming rates. This is a relatively new concept for Australian Herpetology and there are some forums overseas that are a better source of info. PM me for details.

James_scott makes some very good points. In addition when cleaning canister filter dependant on frequency, clean media with water already in tank (media being bio balls etc not filter wool) beneficial bacteria takes approx. 4 to 6 weeks to establish and have the correct bio load to cope, stock levels dependant. Cleaning all filter media starts the whole process fron scratch and will have your nitrite/nitrate levels spiking dangerously especially if you have fish in there . Ps. I do like the enclosure

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You obviously haven't been to Tully
Monthly Rainfall - 032042 - Bureau of Meteorology

As has been said, GTPs don't live anywhere near Tully. You might want to, more appropriately, look at the dry season humidity records for Iron Range, where GTPs actually live. http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/ID...2.latest.shtml

I'm assuming that Keelbacks are relatively small and don't eat rodents, so don't pass large solid stools which are mainly composed of rodent hair? I've tried to point out that it's a relative thing - relative to the size of the water reservoir and the load it's expected to cope with especially. That's not a large body of water for a snake or a tank that size. If it was linked to an outside sump filled with sedges and swamp plants, they could probably deal with the waste quite effectively, but there isn't anywhere near enough space in that tank to accommodate sufficient live plants to deal with the waste of a large snake. The nitrogen cycle - ammonia - nitrite - nitrate = food for plants takes a while to develop, and relies on bacteria, especially the first two stages. To remain in balance, it needs a reasonably stable flow of nutrients (fish, snake waste) into the system. Dumping 40gm of snake waste into a large system will have little effect, do it in a small body of water and you'll constantly be trying to stop the stink.

Jamie

 

[CptLici]

Either has a wild green tree python. lol. Tully still has a good four to five months of dryish weather. Because the environment has adapted to get lots of rain it doesn't take all that long for things to dry out. Humidity easily would get to under 60% after a couple of weeks of dry.

As for the enclosure you could remove the water add a bio substrate and plant out the bottom. If you google living vivariums there are stacks of ideas online, especially if you look at dendroboard forum. If you want multiple animals living together you could try adding green tree frogs with your GTP, or add some insects.

Actually, the BOM says otherwise.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Actually, the BOM says otherwise.

What? That GTPs ARE found around Tully !

J

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Of course they're wet... sometimes... and you naturally picked the wettest place in Australia... but what would old buggers like me & Waterrat know? Despite having been to IR, having kept freshwater & marine fish, frogs, lizards, and snakes (even chondros) over a very long period of time and having tried this stuff out for decades... I managed the live animals exhibits at the WA Museum for a significant amount of time, so I have some experience to share. I do remember being clobbered because I was critical of the Stein enclosures with huge water reservoirs in the bottom, and from the feedback I have had I wasn't too far off the mark. It's simply a matter of form over function...

I too have said the enclosure looks great, my concern is with it's long-term function and the health of the primary inhabitant. The great look might belie some significant practical problems...

Jamie