Native Green Tree Pythons

[spilota_variegata]

The question of "proof of origin" of GTPs that pop up on the Australian market from time to time has been debated on this forum before.

What really interests me is:

If YOU were considering to purchase "Native Green Tree Python(s)" - what kind of proof / evidence / information / explanation / reference, would satisfy you that the GTPs are as advertised?
What additional information / support would you expect from the seller / breeder?

I thrust these are logical, intelligent question, so please respond accordingly (no private messages here).:?

Seeing as you are in the genuine Aussie GTP game how do you guarantee that what you produce is ridgey didge seeing as you advertise them as such?

Hey Craftsman, I think Ramsayi has a good point.

Rather than ask what other people would consider sufficient proof, why not tell everyone your method of proof and ask if we collectively think it is sufficient.

With the price of Aussie GTPs being 60% higher than GTPs from other locations, I feel unambiguous proof of lineage is essential. If it costs the seller a couple of thousand dollars per snake to prove this, so be it - then they can justify the increased price. I've got no idea what DNA testing costs, but this would be a prerequisite to say the least.

Proof on lineage, an affidavit, a promisory note to hand over your first born son, one of your kidneys.... where does it stop???

Please tell us how you prove your GTPs are the genuine article.

Thanks,

David...

 

[amazonian]

You know what, forget this.
Feel free to delete all my posts from this thread.
Am not going to sit here answering a question and being labeled a trouble maker & have my posts deleted for trying to give an accurate account of my own personal feelings as to what I FEEL IS ENOUGH PROOF.

Craftsman go ahead with your thread.
Everyone else can answer you and cop the brunt for having an opinion.

 

[wokka]

Then, if that proof is found to be wrong what is the compensation. Alegal damages claim only produces fat lawyers so its often good to agree on compensation behand in case, heven forbid the healthy natives hatchoes turn out not to be healthy native adults..

 

[CodeRed]

This thread has taken an interesting turn

Amazonian, none of your posts warranted deletion. You asked the same things we have all been asking for.

Craftman, since you brought up the topic, show us what proof, if any, you can offer. If you expect anyone to part with a few extra $1000 per snake then they have to see the value in it.

 

[meangreen]

???????

And to answer you again so we are not confused, disclosure of the collection permit, DNA profiling & Pedigree garuntee is IMHO enough proof for me. If this is not acceptable than let me know and I will change my answer to "The sellers word & faith is enough proof"

That’s a far enough statement / answer to this post, if these papers do exist that is, only have ever heard about them never seen or known of anyone first hand to have seen.

If i had those paper i will be showing them off !

 

[craftsman]

OK, here we go!
I do have copies of permits (as stated previously) but I don't have any proof and never claimed to have one - that those snakes taken in eighties produced any descendants living today. The snakes are keep now are NOT from those snakes I collected in 1986, however, other people may have some.

My snakes came from an established blood line (no names here) and were DNA profiled by a reputable research lab. The results indicate that the females are descendants from Cape York population and because mitochondrial DNA tell us nothing about the males, the lab used a 'neighbouring analysis' that produced a histogram, where the males clearly fall into the Cape York clade.

I am not going to reveal the costs of the analytical work, nor who done it to protect their identity as they don't want to be swamped by these kind of jobs. There are plenty of commercial DNA labs capable of doing this kind of work.

That is my proof - and I challenge anyone to tell me, why would I go to all this effort and expense - to fool someone?
I feel that I have done more than most other breeders to come up with something solid and yes, my honest word goes with it.

Let me also say this - should anyone ask me to sigh an affidavid, I'll tell them where to go!
I am happy to discuss detail with anyone whom I consider to be genuinely interested in my snakes but I am NOT prepared to hand out all information to anyone who asks for it. Unfortunately, there are too many crooks out there.

I am now realising that this may sound like an advertisement - it is not! I am answering your questions above.

 

[Ramsayi]

Thanks for clarifying craftsman.One of the reasons I have held off obtaining greens is that I would rather our own local ones.Was the DNA work done on your line the same as was done on the URS by any chance?

 

[craftsman]

I know nothing about URS line.
I would also like to add that only the breeders were profiled, not their first generation progeny. It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone would raise an argument that the juveniles may not be the progeny of the profiled parents and how do we know that the the parents weren't switched and so on and on. This is where some trust must come in, otherwise we can't move from the dead spot.
By the way, I am happy to provide DNA material of the parents and that can be matched to the progeny by microsatelite DNA analysis (primers for GTPs are readily available) - can be done but will cost a lot. However, the option is there for those who need proof to proof to proof....

 

[c moore]

craftsman,
I think the add in R A Vol 3 issue 6,page 51.Advertising "Aussie GTP's with a pedigree"
100% guaranteed pure Australian bloodlines (parents DNA profiled)
100% guarantee free of exotic disease such as OPMV,IBD.
Volunteer participation in ownership register.
As a prospective buyer for me, this would be a good start.

Craig

 

[craftsman]

thanks you Craig, it's good to hear king words for a change.

 

[Ramsayi]

As far as I am aware the work done on the URS line had them "deemed" as Australian in court.I'm sure someone here can elaborate on it.Reason I brought it up was that DNA testing couldn't really differentiate between our natives and greens from PNG? Again I'm sure someone on this forum could elaborate further.

 

[craftsman]

yes, the resolution is not great but keep in mind that the Rollins & Donnellan paper was published before David Wilson's work at IR. He contributed over 200 DNA samples, which beefed up the database considerably.
There are still some constraints but with the DNA but hey, that's the best the technology offers.

 

[amazonian]

Change of heart.
No need to go on about it.

 

[BT]

well i belive he has supplied enough proof, i hope to purchase some of you in the future craftsman
Blake

 

[craftsman]

Amazonian, if you don't want to continue the discussion with me, then bugger off! I gave you this advise before. Start you own thread and lets see how many people will join in on your sarcastic waffle.
You are completely off the rails re - Bob Buckley's case. Bob is an old friend of mine and I know what happened, when and why, whilst you have obviously no idea.

To the rest of you - my sincere thanks for your input, we've managed 5 pages of interesting discussion, which I hope it was useful, some comments very genuine and to the point, other sdriven by other desires.
If I want to advertise or promote my snakes, I will do it in the 'for sale section' not here.

Thanks again

 

[c moore]

Just for the record,I don't know craftsman or did i know that add in R A was his.
For one the add he has on here and the the one in the magazine have two completely
different email addresses.So it wasn't an attempt to boost his sales.I was stating my opinion that
the information provided would be sufficient evidence for me as a prospective buyer.
However i would like to buy some in the future & would consider nothing less than a pure aussie GTP
& the fact that there is somebody out there who has gone to the trouble to provide the buyer with strong evidence,as to the locality of their lines in my opinion is to be congratulated for there efforts.

Regards,
Craig

 

[amazonian]

Sorry I removed my post before you replied.
I actually had a change of heart and was goign to continue stayign out of this thread.
But meh why should I avoid a thread of interest to me. Anyway let me repeat what was said for all to see so they know what your reply was meant for:

Firstly
I said my response to your question was pretty much the same as c moores only I didn't copy your add in RA word for word and help boost your sales, yet I was flamed as an attacker & the other member thanked for his kind contribution. My answer of DNA profiling and pedigree garuntee wasn't good enough, yet copying your advertisement was. So obviously I know the correct answer now. The same as c moores.

Secondly
As said I would like to continue this discussion just not with yourself. You find my posts as attacking, and I find yours as self indulging. So it best we just don't speak to each other. I will however continue to respond to others though as it is an interesting subject & I have every right to be apart of it. Nothing personal I just don't feel we can communicate to one another. Hope we can move past this thread and atleast be mature enough from this point on to continue the discussion without getting argumentative between ourselves. Best to ignore each other I think.. As I said before "enough said". I will speak directly to others and even post their username 1st so there is no misunderstanding of who I am speaking to.


Thirdly
Ramsayi,
Bob Buckleys confiscated animals were DNA tested when returned. There was no conclusive differences in the results so they were deemed australian. URS bought 6 of these and bred them in 2003. I have heard DNA testing can only distinguish differences in races except for Cape York & Meraukes, however I have also heard only females show differences and males are all alike, and finally I heard there is no conclusive differences at all between any of the species and all are the same. Who knows

 

[spilota_variegata]

OK, here we go!
I do have copies of permits (as stated previously) but I don't have any proof and never claimed to have one - that those snakes taken in eighties produced any descendants living today. The snakes are keep now are NOT from those snakes I collected in 1986, however, other people may have some.

My snakes came from an established blood line (no names here) and were DNA profiled by a reputable research lab. The results indicate that the females are descendants from Cape York population and because mitochondrial DNA tell us nothing about the males, the lab used a 'neighbouring analysis' that produced a histogram, where the males clearly fall into the Cape York clade.

I am not going to reveal the costs of the analytical work, nor who done it to protect their identity as they don't want to be swamped by these kind of jobs. There are plenty of commercial DNA labs capable of doing this kind of work.

That is my proof - and I challenge anyone to tell me, why would I go to all this effort and expense - to fool someone?
I feel that I have done more than most other breeders to come up with something solid and yes, my honest word goes with it.

Let me also say this - should anyone ask me to sigh an affidavid, I'll tell them where to go!
I am happy to discuss detail with anyone whom I consider to be genuinely interested in my snakes but I am NOT prepared to hand out all information to anyone who asks for it. Unfortunately, there are too many crooks out there.

I am now realising that this may sound like an advertisement - it is not! I am answering your questions above.

Looks like you've done your homework and have the right paperwork. I cannot doubt your trustworthiness or integirty as I don't know you. I do however find it strange that you stop short of legally implicating yourself to your word by refusing to sign a legal document that would give people an avenue to seek compensation should it be required.

I thank you personally for stating your method of verification. I'm sure there will be many who will feel the same.

Just for interests sake, are the copies of the permits legally verified - it is very easy to fake a copy of a permit. I know in the NT, the whole permit system had to be changed because of the actions of one person who was exporting snakes with fake permits.

 

[craftsman]

First to Ramsay - Amazonia is repeating I heard, I heard, I heard .... trust me, he has no idea! Bob's animals were never returned, but why am I going into this? Talk to bob if you need to know what happened, I just feel that's water under the bridge - that's what Bob is saying too.

To S. variegata: I give people a pedigree that states ALL relevant information including that about the DNA results. I sign the pedigree.
I also happen to be a JP (Qual) but as such, I can't sigh my own declarations, so if you want me sign an affidavid, you have to come along with one of my colleagues. LOL

 

[CodeRed]

No wonder so many people opt not to buy GTPs .. its a mine field.

Craftman, maybe you and some of your colleges that were there at the start of all this could one day clear the air so that the rest of us dont have to rely on rumours anymore. Id love to hear the facts (of anyone truly knows them) about all the major lines. Of course this will never completely happen and we will be left with only pieces of the puzzle.