New Rule

[Hickson]

As a number of posts recently have discussed illegal behaviour in regards to herps, APS has added a new rule to the General Site Rules:

General Site Rule #14: No member may make a post or thread that encourages others to break any law, or promotes illegal activity (for example, keeping without a licence, illegally taking animals from the wild, smuggling, wiring your own cages, feeding live rodents or freezing live rodents).

This to prevent APS from being used as a vehicle to promote illegal behaviour. The Management of APS, and the Mods, feel very strongly about this hence the introduction of the new rule.

This will not affect the vast majority of members, only a small few, and only in a few discussions.



Hix

 

[slim6y]

Does that mean I can't post my tip for disarming the BMW tracking devices?

 

[junglist*]

hehehe, looks like the mods know the score on the issue.


rofl

 

[Wrasse]

How about making this a sticky for a couple of weeks so it doesn't slip away into the background and everyone gets a chance to see it ?

 

[Jungleland]

Sounds like a good plan........

How about making this a sticky for a couple of weeks so it doesn't slip away into the background and everyone gets a chance to see it ?

 

[Auzlizardking]

How about this one - how many people on APS do this "wiring your own cages" ?
I should add before anyone asks - All electrical work in my enclosures is overseen by an electrician.

 

[moosenoose]

How about this one - how many people on APS do this "wiring your own cages" ?

Shhhhh you're discussing an illegal activity! :lol:

 

[Matty01]

i would and will never feed any of the reptiles i keep a live animal.

then what happens if you keep small dragons?? what you wouldnt feed them, crickets, gents, moths, earthworms, woodies etc etc.?? would they be taught to eat paste from a tube, maybe turn them into tree huggers and get them on tofu diets!!
cheers Matt

 

[jeramie85]

How about this one - how many people on APS do this "wiring your own cages" ?
I should add before anyone asks - All electrical work in my enclosures is overseen by an electrician.

i do

although mine are also marked of and checked by a electrician before any power is put through them

same as parents house extra power points fuse boxes anything like that gets marked off

isnt it lucky granpa is a qualified electrician :lol:

 

[Adandiluvsmyreptiles]

But what about in QLD where it isn't illegal to feed live domesticated animals to reptiles...it is only recommended due to the safety concern of the herp.

Teni

 

[Hickson]

Feeding Live is generally accepted in the Herp world only when the reptile refuses to eat dead food. The different State laws all say pretty much the same thing. Because we have members from all States, and lots of teenage members, to promote something like that without adequate caveats could be construed as irresponsible.

Now:
According to the Queensland Animal Care and Protection Act 2001,

Chapter 3: General Animal Offences,
Part 2: Cruelty Offences
18 (1) A person must not be cruel to an animal.
.....(2) Without limiting subsection (1), a person is taken to be cruel to an animal if the person does any of the following to the animal -
.............(a) causes it pain that is, in the circumstances, unjustifiable, unnecessary or unreasonable;

............. (g) kills it in a way that -
..................... (i) is inhumane; or
..................... (ii) causes itnot to die quickly; or
..................... (iii) causes it to die in unreasonable pain;
............. (h) unjustifiably, unnecessarily or unreasonably -
..................... (i) injures or wounds it; or
..................... (ii) overcrowds or overloads it.

Note: the missing subsections do not relate to this discussion so I have omitted them for clarity. The full legislation can be seen at http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/A/AnimalCaPrA01.pdf

If your reptiles will take dead food, either frozen thawed or fresh killed, then it is uneccessarily cruel to the prey item to feed it while still alive. If this situation went before a court you would probably have to show attempts had been made to feed dead, and that live food was the only way to go. The key words are unjustifiable, unnecessary and unreasonable. And in a Court of Law, it would probably be a judge or jury that decides what is "unreasonable".

Note: Hix has no legal training or experience, and the opinions expressed by him are his own and are based on his interpretation of the legislation.



Hix

 

[whiteyluvsrum]

i asked and this was my answer back-
yes it is illegal to feed a live mouse to a snake in captive
conditions, if the RSPCA found out it is classed a cruelty to the mouse
and you can get a fine, if the snake was hunting in the wild for a
mouse, the mouse has a chance of escaping but not when it is in a caged
area.
the guidlines may not state it but thats the thing, its just a guideline. the law is the law and i'd say it would over rule the guideline.

 

[cris]

Thats is the wrong bit hix somewhere it says you cant feed them live food unless they need it to survive.
here is the relevant bit that i posted here some time back

I checked this out the other day so i thought i should post it up here for all queenslanders to read so they know what is legal.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LE...malCaPrA01.pdf

Definitions for what words like "animal" mean legally can be found on the site and it does include some invertebrates.


Quote:
Division 4 Allowing animal to injure or kill
another animal

37 Unlawfully allowing an animal to injure or kill another
animal

(1) A person in control of an animal (the first animal) must not
unlawfully allow it to injure or kill another animal (the second
animal).

Maximum penalty—300 penalty units or 1 year’s
imprisonment.
(2) The person unlawfully allows the first animal to injure or kill
the second animal if immediately before the injury or killing
happens—
(a) the first animal was under the person’s immediate
supervision; and
Example of immediate supervision for paragraph (a)—
The first animal is within the person’s sight.
(b) the person—
(i) was aware of the second animal’s presence; and
(ii) ought reasonably to have suspected that the second
animal was immediately vulnerable to the first
animal and was likely to be injured or killed by it;
and
(iii) did not take reasonable steps to prevent the injury
or killing.
Examples of reasonable steps for subparagraph (iii)—
1 If the first animal is a dog, putting the dog on a lead
while the second animal is vulnerable to it.
2 If the first animal is a cat, caging the cat while the
second animal is vulnerable to it.

And the relevant exemption


Quote:
43 Animals used to feed another animal
It is an offence exemption for an offence for a person if—
(a) the act that constitutes the offence involves using an
animal (the food animal) as live food for another animal
(the fed animal); and
(b) the food animal and the fed animal are both lawfully
kept by the person; and
(c) the fed animal will only eat the food animal if it is alive;
and
(d) feeding the food animal to the fed animal is essential for
the fed animal’s survival.

 

[moosenoose]

Apparently if you happen to laugh during a live feed makes it even “more” illegal

 

[Hickson]

Cris,

I have to admit, I stopped reading when I got to the bit I quoted as that seemed to be the relevant part. I remember thinking "Why aren't the other States Acts so clear? This one is relatively unambiguous". Didn't even think to look further.

But Paragraph 43 essentially says what I said: you can only feed live if the animal won't eat dead food. And if you kill your food it must be quick and humane.

Thanks Cris!



Hix

 

[wardy]

wiring your own cages is illegal?

 

[whiteyluvsrum]

yes, unless you are a sparky.

 

[IsK67]

wiring your own cages is illegal?

For those in NSW you can check with Dept of Fair Trading licensing and with WorkCover regarding this. Cages, enclosures etcetera fall under the category of Appliances and therefore are not covered under the licensing provision.

However WorkCover do advise that the person must be competent.

In saying this though it is always best to err on the safe side and have someone check your work.

IsK

 

[jeramie85]

also if you wire your own cage and the house burns down due to your wiring or not you can loose out big time on insurance even if the cage didnt start the fire

 

[bredli84]

i thought that the law was that any competent person could wire an appliance, just not the mains.