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Sam123

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Hi everyone, I know this is a very touchy subject from scrolling through old threads on the forums, and banter will probably start up during this thread. Anyways, what is everyone's opinions on hybridization between different species and subspecies? I know from looking through old threads that some people hated them and some people loved them. I want to see if anyone's opinion on them has changed and to see if any of the new members have any opinions on them.
I myself am rather neutral on this subject, even though I like "pure" snakes better I do not hate hybrids

Kind regards
-Sam
P.S also please keep personal attacks out of this thread
Thanks!
 

pinefamily

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I think opinions will have to change with recent DNA results, and future DNA testing.
 

Iguana

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I think a Hybrid can provide the best (if bred well) of both species, same as selective breading in dogs and such, a good combo of genetics can provide a great animal. But that being said, it's always great to see a nice healthy 'pure' reptile.
 

SKYWLKR

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I look forward to the day when the price and value of pure animals will over take the prices of hybrid in the future. Stray too far away from pure lines and the investment and interest will fall....
 

pinefamily

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Some good points here. [MENTION=42227]SKYWLKR[/MENTION], I hope it doesn't get like overseas with designer snakes. Pure breeds are almost an anomaly there, especially our Australian species. [MENTION=27447]vampstorso[/MENTION], that's what I was referring to above. New DNA research seems to point to more commonality than previously thought. Size and colour variations could just be locality driven.

I'm a purist myself.
 

Wally

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I look forward to the day when the price and value of pure animals will over take the prices of hybrid in the future. Stray too far away from pure lines and the investment and interest will fall....

How many can honestly say and prove they have pure lines? Those people are around, but are few and far between these days in the sellers market.
 

pythoninfinite

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Hybridisation and mixing regional variations (such as the Carpets) has probably done more damage to the long-term viability of the "industry" than any other single factor in its decline over the past 5 years or so. If you are a purist (like me) there is virtually no way of obtaining known provenance stock unless you know it came from the wild, or it came from wild-caught parents. The competitive striving for "the prettiest snake on the block" simply on the basis of appearance seems vacuous to me, given that there is far more of interest to these fascinating animals than appearance alone. I'm happy to acknowledge that there are some spectacular human fabrications, especially in the python world, but there's no way I'd ever be interested in owning one. I'd much rather encounter outstanding examples of local animals such as the Carpets & Diamonds any day than some trumped-up human creation cooked up in someone's snake room solely with profit in mind.

Jamie
 

Wally

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Hybridisation and mixing regional variations (such as the Carpets) has probably done more damage to the long-term viability of the "industry" than any other single factor in its decline over the past 5 years or so. If you are a purist (like me) there is virtually no way of obtaining known provenance stock unless you know it came from the wild, or it came from wild-caught parents. The competitive striving for "the prettiest snake on the block" simply on the basis of appearance seems vacuous to me, given that there is far more of interest to these fascinating animals than appearance alone. I'm happy to acknowledge that there are some spectacular human fabrications, especially in the python world, but there's no way I'd ever be interested in owning one. I'd much rather encounter outstanding examples of local animals such as the Carpets & Diamonds any day than some trumped-up human creation cooked up in someone's snake room solely with profit in mind.

Jamie

All of those things were going to drive an explosion in the market of reptile keeping Jamie. It never eventuated. As some of us suspected and voiced, much to the chagrin of those eager to cash in!
 

Waterrat

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All of those things were going to drive an explosion in the market of reptile keeping Jamie. It never eventuated. As some of us suspected and voiced, much to the chagrin of those eager to cash in!

Wally, I really don't think it's so much for the money, no one pays big bucks for snakes any more, no matter what they look like. Also, the "creators" never sell their best, they keep it for future breeding, sometimes right up till their monsters don't reproduce any more or the egg and neonate mortality is so high, it's not worth continuing. More than anything else, it's an obsession with creativity "look what I can do" kind of thing.
At the risk of being flamed (what's new?) I say that these people had very limited knowledge about reptiles generally, not to mention their natural history and ecology, many have never seen a snake in the bush ..... nor they have any interest in such. And then come the pet owners ..... I say no more.

Jamie, there are pure lines out there but breeders seldom advertise them because they bring even less money that the "creations". I used to say "the hobby is heading in the wrong direction', now I am saying "it's already there". LOL But the tables will turn, either naturally or by the wildlife authorities ....... they are concerned, make no mistake.
 

Wally

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Wally, I really don't think it's so much for the money, no one pays big bucks for snakes any more, no matter what they look like. Also, the "creators" never sell their best, they keep it for future breeding, sometimes right up till their monsters don't reproduce any more or the egg and neonate mortality is so high, it's not worth continuing. More than anything else, it's an obsession with creativity "look what I can do" kind of thing.
At the risk of being flamed (what's new?) I say that these people had very limited knowledge about reptiles generally, not to mention their natural history and ecology, many have never seen a snake in the bush ..... nor they have any interest in such. And then come the pet owners ..... I say no more.

Jamie, there are pure lines out there but breeders seldom advertise them because they bring even less money that the "creations". I used to say "the hobby is heading in the wrong direction', now I am saying "it's already there". LOL But the tables will turn, either naturally or by the wildlife authorities ....... they are concerned, make no mistake.

People were paying big bucks not that long ago for snakes when they sensed a change in market perceptions of what was acceptable in the sellers market. High end gamble that hasn't payed off in my opinion.
 

SKYWLKR

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Unless you go out and harvest pythons from their natural wild habitat and successfully breed them, there is no way of knowing if the animals are "pure form" or not. Don't get me wrong, I love looking at the hybrid "contraptions" that people breed and create but my heart lies with purity... because without those of us whom prefer keeping and breeding the "natural" specimens to keep the gene pool as pure as possible.... in 20 years from now there will be no such thing.
 

Wally

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Unless you go out and harvest pythons from their natural wild habitat and successfully breed them, there is no way of knowing if the animals are "pure form" or not. Don't get me wrong, I love looking at the hybrid "contraptions" that people breed and create but my heart lies with purity... because without those of us whom prefer keeping and breeding the "natural" specimens to keep the gene pool as pure as possible.... in 20 years from now there will be no such thing.

Are you a keeper of WA pythons? Because that's about where we are at.
 

Waterrat

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In time, we have to start lobbying for permits to take limited numbers of certain species from the wild to acquire pure lines and to refresh the gene pool of existing captive locality lines. It's just a dream now but it will be a dream forever if the morphers keep on stuffing up natural forms. On another note - what is considered to be a pure line in this hobby?
 

Ramsayi

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Unless you go out and harvest pythons from their natural wild habitat and successfully breed them, there is no way of knowing if the animals are "pure form" or not. in 20 years from now there will be no such thing.

Not quite true.
All my animals are pure without doubt.

If I am still breeding pythons for another 20 years then they will be pure as well.I have zero interest in mongrels as do a lot of other keepers that I know.

People mixing types together do so with the hope of producing something totally different.In the vast majority of those produced they tend to be nothing special at all and compared to pures are miles inferior looks wise.
 

Sam123

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I know i have already voice my opinion when I posted this thread, but it has changed a little bit. I can see why people would want to own a snake that is a hybrid, but for me personally the beauty of pure animals is unbeatable, I even favor the "wild" coloring's. Don't get me wrong, I love myself snakes that have amazing colors, but I like them more if those colors are found in the wild. I do have a question however, would a albino animal be a hybrid or a morph? sorry i advance if that is a stupid question.
Kind regards
-Sam
 

Waterrat

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Sam, albino is a mutation. Naturally occurring although very rare in the wild.
 

Nero Egernia

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My opinion is probably of little importance as I haven't been in the reptile hobby for long and I only keep reptiles because I enjoy it (if not a little obsessed). I don't keep and breed them to support a business. My stance is somewhat neutral. I don't hate the "hybrids", nor do I love them. Although, I won't deny that there are some stunning "hybrid" animals out there. Some of the colours and patterns that are produced are very beautiful, and I don't see why it's such a problem if people breed their captive reptiles that way as they are intended to remain in captivity forever to be pets and nothing more. They're not a part of a conservation project. Breeding for interesting colours and patterns is also fine, unless if it compromises the animal's health.

I don't particularly agree with interbreeding species, and, depending on the circumstances, I don't particularly agree with interbreeding subspecies. However, if the two subspecies are known to naturally interbreed with each other in the wild then I'm OK with that.

I myself would prefer to keep "pure" animals of similar localities as then I can determine what they might face in the wild and therefore what conditions they would be able to cope with in captivity. I myself would never knowingly interbreed species and subspecies together, but that's just me. But the point is probably moot, as the majority of my animals are wild caught.

But on the point of locality specific animals, what is it that some people are drawn to? Colour? Size? Behaviour? Climate? For example I was drawn to the South West (Perth) Varanus tristis tristis because they live in a climate similar to mine and I remember seeing them throughout my childhood.
 

Wally

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Not quite true.
All my animals are pure without doubt.

If I am still breeding pythons for another 20 years then they will be pure as well.I have zero interest in mongrels as do a lot of other keepers that I know.

People mixing types together do so with the hope of producing something totally different.In the vast majority of those produced they tend to be nothing special at all and compared to pures are miles inferior looks wise.


I'll like that even though I know you hate it. :D
 

pinefamily

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The very first albino, a Darwin or North western, was found in the wild at a caravan park near Darwin I believe.

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