Phantom eggs? Gecko breeders pls look.

[Glider]

I'm having a bit of frustration with my female Smooth Knobtail gecko (N. Levis Levis). She's an adult, I'm not sure exactly how old, and has never bred while I've had her (6months).
In the past few weeks she's put on a lot of weight, and her tail has shrunk. She's eating and pooping regularly. She's steadfastly refusing any attention from the male, and he's trying really really hard. Her belly has deffinitely gotten wider and when I pick her up she now feels very solid - much more so than the male. When I flip her over under the lights, I can see two white oval 1cm-ish long masses in her lower abdomen, one on either side of her centreline - not clearly eggs, but close enough to convince me to go and make an incubator asap.
BUT.... here's where it gets wierd.
One night she'll have two white masses, and the next night the white mass on her right-hand side will not be visible at all. She's just as plump, and no egg was found in the enclosure. AND THEN the night after, I could see the 2nd white mass in her belly again. And the next night it disappeared again.

***? Does anyone have any ideas?

I know everyone wants to see pics, but my cameraphone is simply not good enough to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

 

[Aslan]

I understand that seeing the eggs is of course perfectly normal with Gex...

Perhaps it's just moving around inside her to the point where sometimes it is pressed low and sometimes not...it would be odd for her to lay one at a time...I wouldn't be too concerned, but I think that incubator may come in handy in the not too distant future

 

[junglepython2]

I had a similar thing happen with my thick-tails awhile ago, there was two oval white masses but the outlines weren't too defined. She was putting on weight and I was hopeful they were eggs and sometimes one would seem to disappear then reappear. Turned out not to be eggs and I was just overkeen I guess.

 

[Glider]

Damn! I suspect I may just be over hopeful too

 

[Sdaji]

Sometimes you can mistake uric acid which is visible through the belly skin for eggs, often real eggs will be more or less visible depending on the posture of the lizard, or where in her abdomen she is holding them. It's not terribly unusual to unmistakably see eggs, but later not see them because they've moved dorsally. Breeding reptiles is supposed to be frustrating; stress, heartbreak and early aging are as much a part of the game as the occassional success Good luck

 

[JasonL]

If they are egg shape they will be eggs, keep a wet sand corner in the enclosure and keep an eye on her digging. a cricket tub full of sand is good, as she will lay them in the bottom corner and it is easy to check.

 

[Glider]

The white masses are not clearly defined as egg shape & size, which is why I'm not sure about them (I'd considered maybe they moved around a bit in her abdomen, explaining the 'disappearance' issue). I've seen heavily gravid asian house gecko's with eggs through glass, and mine arent that obvious. However the masses are much larger than the uric acid component of the faeces she passes. They're indistinct enough for me to think 'hmm, surely eggs!... but then again maybe not.'

But maybe it's still early... I havent had any experience with gravid Nephurus before. Does anyone have any pics of Nephurus carrying eggs????

 

[Sdaji]

If the 'masses' were quite white, but not clearly egg-shaped, they were probably uric acid. It's very difficult to say without seeing them. I'm told levis levis holds its eggs differently from the other two subspecies, making it easier to see the eggs throughout the time females are gravid. I've found that my levis levis will have clearly visible eggs 5-10 days after becoming gravid (5-10 days after being with a male for the first time, or 5-10 days after the previous clutch) and will look increasingly gravid until the eggs are deposited (usually another 5-15 days later).

 

[Glider]

Hrm.. sounds like not then.

Ah well, there's still time for them to get busy! And now I have an incubator all ready to go just in case.

 

[bredli_15]

gecko eggs

the exact same thing happened to a freind of mine but it laid one while it was hanging from the roof of the enclosure and didnt lay the other one well at least thats what we know because she got out in his garage about a couple of weeks later she had the same two white ovals in her belly

 

[JasonL]

Hrm.. sounds like not then.

Ah well, there's still time for them to get busy! And now I have an incubator all ready to go just in case.

If she is really fat and lost tail weight, I would still be thinking she is gravid. Sometimes infertile eggs are harder to see, Maybe she is still early days. Levis are very easy to breed and lay more eggs than chickens. Don't wright her off yet.

 

[Glider]

She laid an egg!!

I came home last night and the cage looked like a quarry, picked her up and she was a little lighter, and the deffinite white mass on her left was gone... tilted the cage up and there was a big white oval on the bottom of the tank. Unfortunately when I carefully uncovered it it was firmly glued to the glass, and ruptured at one end with a little eggwhite oozing out when I very very gently tried to move it.

When I was examining her I couldnt see the phantom mass on her right side, but she's still pretty solid so maybe there's an infertile one in there still. *shrug* She's eating fine and digging and exploring, so I think I'll just keep an eye on her in case another one comes.

Its a shame that the egg was damaged, but I'm still very happy and excited, because now I know I deffinitely have a breeding pair, and I'm sure there'll be more to come - it's all experience I'm so proud of her- the egg was HUGE!

 

[JasonL]

Was there any yolk in the egg or was it all white, if the later, it was infertile. If you use a cricket tub full of damp sand (make sure all other sand / substrate in your enclosure is dry) she will lay them in the container and if they are stuck you can cut around the plastic (carefully) and incubate it still stuck to the plastic.

 

[Glider]

I didnt cut the egg open to see... only white came out, by the time the egg was free of the glass about 1/3 of the contents had oozed out. It's in the bin at home, so I might go cut it open after work (lets hope its not stinky yet!)

Good idea about the plastic tub- I'll have a go at that.

 

[JasonL]

good eggs should be clear and yellow, if it was white, I'd be pretty confident saying it was a slug. I find most of my levis's first season eggs are slugs or one good one bad, then they lay four to five good clutches and a few more slugs at the tail end of the season.

 

[Glider]

Ah ok then, I'd been reading up on Levis breeding and had heard that it was unusual for there to only be one egg, and the first clutch of her first season were usually no good, so when the egg broke I was kinda hoping it was no good anyway (trying to make myself feel better). The liquid that came out was milky coloured.

 

[Pyror]

Hey Glider, another thing i find is if the eggs are stuck to the bottom of the enclosure (which will happen most of the time). Take a spray bottle of water only, and go crazy on the eggs, let the water soak a little, wiggle them and repeat. I have been rough as guts with knobbie eggs in this situation and have not yet ever had a problem removing them or subsequently incubating them.

I would say this season i have removed atleast a dozen clutches that were stuck to the enclosure/laying tub and some times to each other. So far all but the infertile ones (1 clutch) have been successfully removed and are either incubating well or have completed their incubation.

 

[Glider]

Thats very interesting... soaking it with water had crossed my mind but I wasnt sure if that would help or cause damage to the egg.

Someone knowledgeable also suggested that if it was stuck, cover it back up with damp sand and protect it under a little upturned plastic container and let it stay there, it would just take longer to hatch (as she laid it in a cooler area)

Both points are now moot, but its very useful to know for next time.

 

[Glider]

She laid again!! And just one eggie again.

I'm so excited!

It's her second ever, and it seems like a good one. This one seemed bigger and fuller and rounder than the dud one she laid last month, so hopefully its viable I carefully looked at it over a bright light without changing the orientation of it but the egg had dirt on it so I couldnt see anything much inside - and I didnt really know what I was looking for anyway...
She laid it some time between 7am and noon, and out in the open (which was very odd, but lucky it wasnt stuck to the glass like the last one). I have it in a container of moist vermiculite in a small esky incubator set at about 28º.

The egg is huge! Roughly the equivalent of a watermelon in human terms She's such a little trooper.

 

[mines bigger]

hopefully this one turns out to be fertile