Regulated taking of wildlife.

[eipper]

There is no evidence that if regulated, collection from the wild of both reptiles and amphibians would cause any harm to a species or ecosystem as a whole.

There are significant variables on how a system could work, how to make it cost effective and actually use money gained for real conservation benefit.

For instance, For any system to work I believe there needs to be a revamp of the wildlife permit system. For starters, it should be national and run by DPI not the various wildlife departments. This would save on the costs to the tax payer significantly, benefit the keeper by helping with confusion surrounding licensing and free up the various versions of the parks and wildlife services to do there job in managing the conservation of Australia's natural and cultural heritage.

The animals that are in captivity for the most part have no direct conservation value and will not assist in repatriation of a species in decline.

So how to regulate???

Well I feel it is fairly simple...cut out the need for a person to have a licence to keep any species that does not pose a threat to humans and has a classification of least concern. Allow for private collection only (you cannot catch to sell) and only from private land. You must register as a reptile keeper with the relevant authority. This specifically excludes taking from any reserve. If someone is caught collecting in a reserve the penalty should be a mandatory sentance.

For potentially dangerous species, they could only be taken and kept by a licence holder, again the protection classification and limitations on where collected would need to be upheld.

So what about other species such as rare, vulnerable, threatened etc. You must have a licence for these species. Any collection must be authorised prior and there would be a subject on a case by case basis but at a minimum would require a studbook, collection data, deposit of the specimen to a museum upon death, a species captive management plan etc

How trade under such a system???? Well its fairly simple the common level allows for trade of captive bred progeny. The potentially dangerous species can only be traded to another similar licence holder. For the restricted/threatened fauna permission from the permit giver would need to be sought prior to trade.

Collection for trade, this would be a license that allows a person to collect for petshops etc.

A couple of broad overlying restrictions would need to be in place. Firstly there must be no public exhibition of animals without a relevant exhibit permit (eg schools, childcare centres, birthday parties, fetes etc) All people keeping reptiles must comply with a single annual return of transactions, deaths, aquisitions, escapes etc.

Obviously there are some commerical gain and these would incurr fees for the oppotunity eg harvasting, demonstrations etc

Cheers

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Being no scientist, I can only rely on being a hands on observational witness. I can categorically state though, as a licensed reptile taker, I have in the areas I harvest seen an obvious increase in populations of both Stimsons, Woma’s and Black-headed pythons. Obviously numbers seen each year fluctuate and we all know that populations are indirectly influenced by the rainfall and its effect on available prey the following season but clearly the population numbers have nothing to do with the amount of reptiles I have taken. These days I spend about half the hours on the road as I ever used to and yet see more than I used to. I can only speak for a seven year period however.
Just for curiosity sake, this is how many Woma’s were seen in the wild over a few years by the family or crew helping us.
Year one, 13 using three vehicle spotters
Year two, 25 using three vehicle spotters
Year three, 40 plus, using three vehicle spotters
Year four, 60 plus, using two vehicle spotters
Year five, estimated around 90, using one vehicle
Year 6 (more than I have ever seen before) l can’t provide an accurate figure for year 6 because we seldom had a need to collect and therefore record, only one vehicle spotting though far less hours.
In most cases wild collecting of many species desired in the pet trade has next to no impact the sustainability of the species in the wild ( In this area at the very least ).

 

[GeckoJosh]

Being no scientist, I can only rely on being a hands on observational witness. I can categorically state though, as a licensed reptile taker, I have in the areas I harvest seen an obvious increase in populations of both Stimsons, Woma’s and Black-headed pythons. Obviously numbers seen each year fluctuate and we all know that populations are indirectly influenced by the rainfall and its effect on available prey the following season but clearly the population numbers have nothing to do with the amount of reptiles I have taken. These days I spend about half the hours on the road as I ever used to and yet see more than I used to. I can only speak for a seven year period however.
Just for curiosity sake, this is how many Woma’s were seen in the wild over a few years by the family or crew helping us.
Year one, 13 using three vehicle spotters
Year two, 25 using three vehicle spotters
Year three, 40 plus, using three vehicle spotters
Year four, 60 plus, using two vehicle spotters
Year five, estimated around 90, using one vehicle
Year 6 (more than I have ever seen before) l can’t provide an accurate figure for year 6 because we seldom had a need to collect and therefore record, only one vehicle spotting though far less hours.
In most cases wild collecting of many species desired in the pet trade has next to no impact the sustainability of the species in the wild ( In this area at the very least ).

Do you think the experience gained from previous years has allowed to you find more as you get to know the right places/times to go looking?

 

[FAY]

One thing that I would like to ask you Dave. This is a question that I have wanted to ask for a while. This question is with all due respect. Why does the WA government keep allowing you or anyone else with the reptile taker licence to keep taking from the wild? Is there,or if there is not, why is there no condition that you take xx amount from the wild, then you have to at least start breeding your own stock and leave the wild populations alone? When will taking from the wild in WA by yourself and others end?

Being no scientist, I can only rely on being a hands on observational witness. I can categorically state though, as a licensed reptile taker, I have in the areas I harvest seen an obvious increase in populations of both Stimsons, Woma’s and Black-headed pythons. Obviously numbers seen each year fluctuate and we all know that populations are indirectly influenced by the rainfall and its effect on available prey the following season but clearly the population numbers have nothing to do with the amount of reptiles I have taken. These days I spend about half the hours on the road as I ever used to and yet see more than I used to. I can only speak for a seven year period however.
Just for curiosity sake, this is how many Woma’s were seen in the wild over a few years by the family or crew helping us.
Year one, 13 using three vehicle spotters
Year two, 25 using three vehicle spotters
Year three, 40 plus, using three vehicle spotters
Year four, 60 plus, using two vehicle spotters
Year five, estimated around 90, using one vehicle
Year 6 (more than I have ever seen before) l can’t provide an accurate figure for year 6 because we seldom had a need to collect and therefore record, only one vehicle spotting though far less hours.
In most cases wild collecting of many species desired in the pet trade has next to no impact the sustainability of the species in the wild ( In this area at the very least ).

 

[longqi]

In every country where they permit wild collection of animals the animals are in serious decline

There is a small island near Papua called Misool
It was my favourite walking/treking spot for years and every trip I saw a minimum of 20+ chondros
Then someone 'discovered' the chondros
They became famous a few years ago as canary yellows

It is virtually impossible to even see a chondro there now
Even the local snake catchers travel to kofiau instead
An entire subspecies possibly beyond recovery in only a few years

Exactly the same thing is happening with every one of the Island based Dwarf retics and burmese

Pet collectors only want the best
So the genetic diversity is destroyed very quickly when only the biggest healthiest and most beautiful are taken
You have to ask a simple question
If you had a permit to collect 10 xxxxx, would you take any 10, or would you collect 50 and select the best 10 out of those before releasing the rest, hopefully somewhere near where you caught them??

That should be of primary concern

The thing with the Oenpellis is so very different as its attempting to preserve a species
Any other collecting is not unless its under the same rigid guidelines

There is no evidence that if regulated, collection from the wild of both reptiles and amphibians would cause any harm to a species or ecosystem as a whole.

Cheers

Google is your friend
Every single country that collects ball or royal pythons has complained about the vast drop in numbers and thus the resulting reduction in income
Indian pythons are virtually extinct
Many boa species have totally vanished from small islands
Simple little things like the corn snake sub species now considered extinct in its natural range

So there are hundreds of bits of direct evidence to the contrary if you care to look

 

[killimike]

I think people are a little focused on only reptiles. Ok, and roos

Currently, thousands upon thousands of fish are taken from the environment in Australia every year by individuals with minimal governmental supervision or intervention. In addition to rec fishing for sport or food, this includes hobbyists who take them for 'the pet trade', as unclear as that kinda language is, like myself. But the sky is not falling.

Collecting from the wild is already taking place, in a number of states, for the pet trade, legally. It is also happening for research and conservation. These are good goals and reasons, but the animals that are pickled in a museum are just as removed from the wild as an animal collected for 'the pet trade'. Only they will never reproduce

So it's happening for other animals, and it's already happening for reptiles....

 

[Echiopsis]

Please name two species of reptile that are increasing in numbers in the wild??
Number one is simple
Number two answer will be waited for with baited breath

Stable; as you quoted means neither increasing nor decreasing???


Yet you would happily legalise even more wild collections knowing full well that those legal collections may just be the final straw with some species

When we reach a point where our 'pet' reptiles, which will never be released and therefore have no bearing on wild stocks, have become more important than Australian ecology, it is time to take a very hard look at what we really love

Everyone considering this should ask themselves a simple question
Do I love reptiles?
Or do I love a pet in a box?

Regarding the boot full of reptiles analogy. there will always be scumbags out there
Legalising more collections only adds to the problem

Emotional rubbish, the kind of dribble arm chair herpers like to spout.

Got some literature to back up the statement "Since scientific studies categorically prove they are all decreasing bar one; you just shot yourself in the foot"? The only shooting going on here is you shooting your mouth off about subjects you know nothing about.

When did I say i would happily legalise wild collection of species knowing it might be the final straw? You need to lay off the hooch and actually read what is written. You quoted my reference to stability so you obviously read it, what are you not understanding?

Wild collection is happening regardless of what laws are in place. Legalise the limited collection of species, drop the value and decrease the desirability in turn decreasing the urge to poach. Once the dollar value of an animal drops off the wild stocks will be left alone.

I dont give a rats **** about pet keeping, i work with reptiles in the field and see first hand what damage is done when 'collectors' are forced to smash and grab rather than carefully collect. This site is populated by hypocrites, you all find wild collection so horrible but dont mind buying the offsrping of these wild caught animals in the slightest.

Longqi, your an emotional fool.

In every country where they permit wild collection of animals the animals are in serious decline

There is a small island near Papua called Misool
It was my favourite walking/treking spot for years and every trip I saw a minimum of 20+ chondros
Then someone 'discovered' the chondros
They became famous a few years ago as canary yellows

It is virtually impossible to even see a chondro there now
Even the local snake catchers travel to kofiau instead
An entire subspecies possibly beyond recovery in only a few years

Exactly the same thing is happening with every one of the Island based Dwarf retics and burmese

Pet collectors only want the best
So the genetic diversity is destroyed very quickly when only the biggest healthiest and most beautiful are taken
You have to ask a simple question
If you had a permit to collect 10 xxxxx, would you take any 10, or would you collect 50 and select the best 10 out of those before releasing the rest, hopefully somewhere near where you caught them??

That should be of primary concern

The thing with the Oenpellis is so very different as its attempting to preserve a species
Any other collecting is not unless its under the same rigid guidelines



Google is your friend
Every single country that collects ball or royal pythons has complained about the vast drop in numbers and thus the resulting reduction in income
Indian pythons are virtually extinct
Many boa species have totally vanished from small islands
Simple little things like the corn snake sub species now considered extinct in its natural range

So there are hundreds of bits of direct evidence to the contrary if you care to look

You use island populations and species found in third world countries as examples when arguing about the impact on Australian species, come on! :lol:

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Geckjosh
Good question and I am glad you asked. Yes there is no doubt that experience has made the finds more frequent but this was only really reflected in the difference between the first and second year. The roads we used have not changed however.
Fay
I am assuming the D.E.C already know that demand will neatly dictate the need to collect and that demand will undoubtedly become smaller and smaller as private captive bred stock makes its way to the dealers. Licensed dealers are not permitted to breed by the way ( only licenced keepers).
Even if dealer could breed there is little incentive to do so as progeny has to be retained for 3 months which is would be time consuming and it is more cost effective to simply collect.
The current reality is that we only collect for specific orders or if I stumble across something I personally want myself. I hope the DEC continues this privilege. The demand for wild collected over captive bred is small compared to the demand for captive bred but will it probably always be there.
The Bottom line is (personal ethics aside of course), it is either sustainable or not. The D.E.C obviously thinks at the current numbers taken, it is.

 

[Red-Ink]

Geckjosh
Good question and I am glad you asked. Yes there is no doubt that experience has made the finds more frequent but this was only really reflected in the difference between the first and second year. The roads we used have not changed however.
Fay
I am assuming the D.E.C already know that demand will neatly dictate the need to collect and that demand will undoubtedly become smaller and smaller as private captive bred stock makes its way to the dealers. Licensed dealers are not permitted to breed by the way ( only licenced keepers).
Even if dealer could breed there is little incentive to do so as progeny has to be retained for 3 months which is would be time consuming and it is more cost effective to simply collect.
The current reality is that we only collect for specific orders or if I stumble across something I personally want myself. I hope the DEC continues this privilege. The demand for wild collected over captive bred is small compared to the demand for captive bred but will it probably always be there.
The Bottom line is (personal ethics aside of course), it is either sustainable or not. The D.E.C obviously thinks at the current numbers taken, it is.

Is there a cap on the number of collected specimens and the number of collecting trips anually? Is there also a "bag limit" in regards to specific species? Forgive me if the questions are rude, I'm just curious to the whole process.

 

[longqi]

Echiopsis
Australia has one of the most delicately balanced ecosystems on Earth
In many cases there are small localised groups of reptiles
Very similar to an island in many ways??
So using that correlation is perfectly valid
I also used them because they, in particular the ball pythons and island boas, were fairly well regulated
The PET TRADE set the limits with payments and setting up collection centres
Oops
Didnt work real well

I notice you never even attempted to say which Aussie species are stable and not in decline
As you say, you work in the field so please tell us
Id be happy to learn that some are at least stable

Every study Ive ever read states they are in decline and every area I herped in 25 years ago appears to have less now than it did then

Of course illegal wild collecting happens
Drugs are illegal too
Doesnt stop people using them

There are very very few Aussie species where collection is still necessary to improve genetic diversity

The pet trade has enough now
But it can be a greedy monster

 

[PMyers]

Absolutely agree with reptiles such as the oenpellis being collected to try to save them
But thats under very stringent guidelines and probably a one of situation where I believe the majority of any successful breeding is destined for more breeding and relocation
Its a bit different to collecting for the pet trade

Call me an incredible cynic (I am, I know), but at the recently advertised price of $10,000 a pop, I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that the pet trade isn't at least near the very top of the list of reasons why a certain someone wishes to collect oenpelli from the wild.

 

[jahan]

Urban development and road kills take alot more than poaches.
There must be thousands killed on the road every day.

 

[Beard]

Wild collection is happening regardless of what laws are in place. Legalise the limited collection of species, drop the value and decrease the desirability in turn decreasing the urge to poach. Once the dollar value of an animal drops off the wild stocks will be left alone.

I completely agree with this. Unfortunately there are many who rely on profiting from this 'hobby' who would fight tooth and nail to block this eventuating.

Urban development and road kills take alot more than poaches.
There must be thousands killed on the road every day.

About 5 million per annum on the nations roads.

 

[jordo]

Apart from a small number of species all of the rest have plenty of genetic diversity already in captivity

Every reptile and amphibian in Australia except for one notable exception is declining in numbers

Why add to the decline??

What is the one notable exception?

Echiopsis
Australia has one of the most delicately balanced ecosystems on Earth
In many cases there are small localised groups of reptiles
Very similar to an island in many ways??
So using that correlation is perfectly valid
I also used them because they, in particular the ball pythons and island boas, were fairly well regulated
The PET TRADE set the limits with payments and setting up collection centres
Oops
Didnt work real well

I notice you never even attempted to say which Aussie species are stable and not in decline
As you say, you work in the field so please tell us
Id be happy to learn that some are at least stable

Every study Ive ever read states they are in decline and every area I herped in 25 years ago appears to have less now than it did then

Of course illegal wild collecting happens
Drugs are illegal too
Doesnt stop people using them

There are very very few Aussie species where collection is still necessary to improve genetic diversity

The pet trade has enough now
But it can be a greedy monster

You can't compare overseas examples because that is an international trade. If Australia was part of that international trade there would be infinite demand for our animals... But it's not.

Oh and I think I could put together a pretty good list for you. Just some examples: Pogona vitticeps, Tiliqua scincoides/rugosu/occipitalis/multifasciata/nigrolutea, hmm most species that comes to mind really... Ctenotus leonhardii, Lampropholis guichenoti, Pseudonaja textilis...

Would you disagree with any I've included?

 

[Echiopsis]

Echiopsis
Australia has one of the most delicately balanced ecosystems on Earth
In many cases there are small localised groups of reptiles
Very similar to an island in many ways??
So using that correlation is perfectly valid
I also used them because they, in particular the ball pythons and island boas, were fairly well regulated
The PET TRADE set the limits with payments and setting up collection centres
Oops
Didnt work real well

Your grasping at straws here. Obviously conservation significant species with limited distributions or species already under pressure due to habitat loss or other external pressures cant be harvested in large numbers (or at all). I thought that was a given, did anyone really need it spelled out?
Island populations in third world countries are bound to succumb to the pressure of collection when the snakes are being harvested to feed a mans family, thats not the case in Australia.

I notice you never even attempted to say which Aussie species are stable and not in decline
As you say, you work in the field so please tell us
Id be happy to learn that some are at least stable

No i didnt, im not in the habit of making things up to win an arguement. I dont know what species are stable, what species are decreasing and what species are increasing but im confident that what you are saying is rubbish. That said, it is my opinion and as i dont have any hard facts to back me up i will refrain from making sweeping statements as to the numbers of every species of herp on the continent.

Every study Ive ever read states they are in decline and every area I herped in 25 years ago appears to have less now than it did then

Care to cite some references? And no, reference to mismanaged island pops. in third world countries wont do. Lets see some hard facts relating to the subject at hand.

Of course illegal wild collecting happens
Drugs are illegal too
Doesnt stop people using them

Obviously :lol: Where your happy to bury your head in the sand and hope it all sorts itself out im being realistic. You dont offer an alternative, you just state its wrong with some flowery sentences about ecosystems. Whats the alternative? Every desirable species in Australia will make its way onto the books eventually, many by illegal means. Why not cut the corner, skip the BS and make them available in a controlled way?

There are very very few Aussie species where collection is still necessary to improve genetic diversity

The pet trade has enough now
But it can be a greedy monster

Where are you getting this stuff? There are hundreds of species that arent available to the pet trade at all but as interest increases and the hobby craves new projects any species predicted to be worth a buck will make their way onto the books.

 

[eipper]

Google is your friend
Every single country that collects ball or royal pythons has complained about the vast drop in numbers and thus the resulting reduction in income
Indian pythons are virtually extinct
Many boa species have totally vanished from small islands
Simple little things like the corn snake sub species now considered extinct in its natural range

So there are hundreds of bits of direct evidence to the contrary if you care to look

Google...come on that's the same as wikipedia....in your case maybe a friend....but friends can be misguided!!!!

You state clearly that there is evidence to the contrary....can you please give me a link to a scientific paper confirming your emotive position. Anecdotal reports do not begin to qualify.

Keep in mind that insular populations are already biased genetically and that genetic depression may result in species population decline.

As for my actual post I stated species of least concern (you may want to look that up).

I would like to ask where you have gained your knowledge about the populations of Australian reptiles when you make the statement that all Australian Reptiles are in decline with one exception. Do you have data that no person has access to or are you basing it from emotion. I assume the species that is not in decline you refer to is Salt Water Crocodile, Crocodylus porosus.

My understanding is that very few detailed studies of population dynamics have been studied and I cannot think of one with the exception of a few endangered species (which would not be collected under the proposal I suggested anyway) that have been surveyed across their range. Localised populations have the same effects as insular ones via isolation.

Looking forward to reading the papers you provide

 

[zulu]

One thing that I would like to ask you Dave. This is a question that I have wanted to ask for a while. This question is with all due respect. Why does the WA government keep allowing you or anyone else with the reptile taker licence to keep taking from the wild? Is there,or if there is not, why is there no condition that you take xx amount from the wild, then you have to at least start breeding your own stock and leave the wild populations alone? When will taking from the wild in WA by yourself and others end?

This is the problem with the takers system fay, Dec has no plans to stop,its just a simple revenue thing.
It goes beyond the argument of taking sustainably,the numbers taken do not impact on the wild populations as a whole but they along with various animals taken legally in SA and NT have a negative impact on the prices of captive bred.

Its a very small market when its divided into select species to keepers,with some of the species like monitors and western bluetongues the prices have dropped like a stone in relation to government sponsored taking.

Pythons has seen similar falls, bhps,womas,stimsons.

Less damage would be done to the economy as a whole if limited numbers of rarer species were collected but the governments like DECC know no bounds when faced with the almighty $$$$$$$

 

[dragonlover1]

Wow,this subject has kicked the hornets nest.everybody has a different idea but no agreement even a couple have their claws out.I'm sort of torn in 2,I have captive reptiles that I know would probably be happier in the natural environment but on the other hand if all creatures were only in the wild most of us would never see any of them. Longqi said "do you want a pet in a box or are you a reptile lover?"
I say if we didn't have a pet in a box we wouldn't be reptile lovers.So I'm in favour of some de-regulation here as well as in the impossible war on illegal drugs.The govt controls and distributes=win win

 

[longqi]

Google...come on that's the same as wikipedia....in your case maybe a friend....but friends can be misguided!!!!

You state clearly that there is evidence to the contrary....can you please give me a link to a scientific paper confirming your emotive position. Anecdotal reports do not begin to qualify.

Keep in mind that insular populations are already biased genetically and that genetic depression may result in species population decline.

As for my actual post I stated species of least concern (you may want to look that up).

I would like to ask where you have gained your knowledge about the populations of Australian reptiles when you make the statement that all Australian Reptiles are in decline with one exception. Do you have data that no person has access to or are you basing it from emotion. I assume the species that is not in decline you refer to is Salt Water Crocodile, Crocodylus porosus.

My understanding is that very few detailed studies of population dynamics have been studied and I cannot think of one with the exception of a few endangered species (which would not be collected under the proposal I suggested anyway) that have been surveyed across their range. Localised populations have the same effects as insular ones via isolation.

Looking forward to reading the papers you provide

Getting the Aussie papers will take me a few days to contact a couple of people
The rest can be provided at any time

Anecdotal evidence is accepted in law, but not by you?
I loved your comment about collectors being forced to wreak havoc in their haste
Nobody is being forced to take reptiles from the wild
They do it through greed and greed alone
Illegal collection is never done for the benefit of wild stocks

I know of one single place in Aus where the population of snakes is still hopefully increasing
Every other area I used to go herping in shows marked reductions in populations
These reductions are because of many reasons including cats toads development forestry and mining etc etc but they most definitely dont need any more pressure on them

As you said every desirable species will eventually end up on someones books somehow
So there is no need to cut corners
Just wait

We have to learn from the horrible mistakes that were made internationally
If a species is of least concern why do we need to collect them??
Ball pythons burmese boas bloods chondros and retics would all have been species of least concern once and certain sub species of each of these are now virtually extinct in the wild

Someone commented about the proposed price of oenpellis being around $10,000
Its only a few years ago chondros were $15,000 each so $10,000 is quite reasonable when you consider the work and time that will go into these imo, pretty ordinary snakes

You have an open invitation to drop in here one day
I can take you on night treks to tribal places untouched by collectors in Sumatra Kalimantan and Papua and you will be in shock at the life there
Then we will visit environmentally similar areas where collectors have been
And you will be in total shock at the difference

Sustainable collection of snakes and lizards for the pet trade hasnt worked anywhere on Earth yet
I see no reason why it could work in Aus
After reading the posts here I also see no valid reason why it could be necessary

 

[Bluetongue1]

Wild Taking
Before opening any debate on wild taking, an understanding of basic population dynamics should have been forward. All populations produce more offspring than can possibly survive. (If they did not they would soon become extinct). This means that a certain number of individuals each year must die. For example I was reading a CSIRO article on the Honey Possum not so long ago which stated its mortality rate is around 86%. While this is clearly a high rate, it clearly illustrates that the animal is able to maintain a stable population with 86 out of every 100 animals dying each year.

Say you have a gecko that lives for 4 years only, does not reach sexual maturity until its second year and has only one clutch per year. This would be an extremely low reproductive potential (fecundity). Over 5 years it produces 6 offspring. Only 2 of these are required to survive to maintain a stable population (i.e. to replace the adults at death). So 4 out of 6 or 67% of the offspring must die. In real life, most Australian geckoes are much more fecund and like to produce around two dozen offspring, meaning 22 or 93% of offspring must die.

Sustainable Yield
It is possible to harvest a percentage of animals ANNUALLY from any given population such that it has ZERO effect on the long-term size of the population. This means that the population size will continue to fluctuate within the normal range set by the effects of the limiting factors operating on that population – commonly referred to as a "stable population".

As mentioned, kangaroos are shot in the tens of thousands every year. This has been going on for more than a century, originally to supply pet meat but more recently for human consumption as well. Shooters have to follow a protocol that include inspecting females for pouch young and humanely dispensing with them if there are. Take your pick – you can have older roos killed instantly with a bullet or joeys slowly starving to death or dying of dehydration or diseases (to which they become susceptible due to their weaken state).

Call me an incredible cynic (I am, I know), but at the recently advertised price of $10,000 a pop, I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that the pet trade isn't at least near the very top of the list of reasons why a certain someone wishes to collect oenpelli from the wild.

If you do not know the man, his qualifications or his past history, then I would suggest that it is not appropriate to speculate on his motivation. At least do a little research first.


Blue