Scrub halp D:

[Necromanced]

As the title explains, I am in need of some help.

I've had my baby scrub python for about a month now. She's the length of my arm, excluding my hand (so about two feet, maybe slightly under. I mention this just incase any pr0's can guess her age, as I'm unsure of how old she is).

My problem is, she refuses to eat. I've tried fuzzies, pinkies (when she refused the fuzzies), brained them, had them under the heat lamp, in the shade, in both her hides, near and away from the water bowl, during the day and overnight feeding. The only thing I've not done is put the prey item on her perching branch (and if that worked, I would rage :evil. Just for clarification, I've only ever placed one food item in the vivarium at a time.

The set up for her is a 36x18x18 (Height, width, depth respectively) wooden vivarium. Two hides from cork bark, one in the basking side, and the other in the cooler side, a water bowl (which she enjoys paddling in), a branch for her to climb set up at the cooler end of the vivarium. The basking side has a heat mat and a 60w green heat lamp. The hide is set up if she can choose between having light and warmth or to go into her hide just to be warm. The lamp is on about 12 hours a day from 10am-10pm on a set timer. At the cooler side, she has another hide from cork bark, and a branch which crosses the vivarium from the front to the back, leaning against the back of it being about 3/4 inches from the top of the vivarium for space for her to curl up.

As far as I'm aware, I'm not doing anything wrong. I've not tried provoking a feeding response by aggravating or teasing until she strikes, and I downright refuse force feeding.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Food items far too small - a hatchling scrub will very easily take an adult mouse or small weaner rat. Make sure the temps are appropriate, and offer the food item warm after it's been thawed in hot water.

Jamie

 

[saximus]

I don't own a scrub but it shouldn't be a problem for it to not eat for a month. Especially because it's winter over there right now?
You could try another type of prey item too. Mice, quails or chickens are all popular options. If she was brought up on something like mice she might not realise that the smell of rat means food.

 

[Necromanced]

Food items far too small - a hatchling scrub will very easily take an adult mouse or small weaner rat. Make sure the temps are appropriate, and offer the food item warm after it's been thawed in hot water.

Jamie

I'll give bigger food items a chance. Didn't cross my mind she'd not want bigger food items, if I'm honest. I just assumed she was feeding on what the pet shop guys sold me.. The temperatures she's in are... I think, the cool end is about 70-78/80 and the basking end is bordering on 85-87. She's also near a radiator which would affect the ambient temperature, but she was near a window before and never really moved until she was somewhere warmer. I've checked on her twice now (I've thrown a towel over her viv so the light in my room doesn't throw her off thinking it's daytime) and she's roaming all over the place.

@ Saximus: It is winter over here, and I had read about scrubs not eating for a while during this season, but then all sorts of thoughts crossed my mind. I even took her to someone to check her out for mites despite showing no signs because I was paranoid she wasn't moving from her waterbowl xD
As for food items, I've only been feeding her mice. I'll try a different kind of rodent, me thinks. I'd want to try a gerbil but I've read they can also get incredibly picky about their food once been fed gerbils.

Edit: I just had a thought. I'll take some pictures of her enclosure and record the temperatures to see if you guys think anything needs changing. And ofc, pictures of her

Edit #2: Just tried teasing her with the food item ie prodding it with forceps closer to her face etc. She either backed away from it/diverted off or when it touched her nose she flinched slightly and wandered off somewhere else.




Some pictures there to show her house, how thick she is compared to my little finger and how long she is compared to an exoterra 18x18x something. I know it's a medium tank so heh.
And ofc, pictures of her.

Not sure if bumping is frowned upon but I'ma do it anyway.

 

[saximus]

Beautiful little snake. Are they supposed to be that skinny?
I'd suggest scenting with something else. I have a Bredli and a Maccy that do exactly the same thing with rats. They sniff at it and get scared and back away if it touches them. If I rub the prey items with mice though they both take it

 

[Necromanced]

She's only young, and I've heard that being disproportioned isn't uncommon; as they get older they apparently take more of a 'python' shape. I'm taking her to the pet shop where I got her from tomorrow for any advice and different prey items to experiment with.
She's been tried with mice since I got her and she hasn't taken them.
Any suggestions as to what prey items would be advisable?

 

[Mace699]

probably completeley irrelevant but can i ask what the grey/white powder on her is? also what woodchips are you using in the cage as some are not good for snakes?

 

[saximus]

Most people over here seem to have a bit of success with chicken or quail. Even putting a feather in the mouth of the rat or mouse can do it

probably completeley irrelevant but can i ask what the grey/white powder on her is? also what woodchips are you using in the cage as some are not good for snakes?

I was going to ask the same thing

 

[Necromanced]

I've no idea what the white substance is. It goes away after she bathes, so I assume it might be dust from something or other inside the viv. but I'll ask the guy at the store today and get back to you on what he thinks it is.

 

[Riggsy]

Get rid of the wood chips off the floor and just use newspaper. The dust from the wood can cause respiratory problems. Also get a cage for around the light bulb. If she coils around the light and it goes on the feeding will be the least of her problems. And yeah she looks too skinny...Good Luck

 

[Necromanced]

Apparently it's just dust; it rubbed off with a cotton bud when I took her to the shop. I got given rat pups to feed her but I've got to wait a week without handling and try to feed her then. If nothing happens then I'm going to leave her with the shop owners to see if they can get her to feed.
As for her weight, she is healthy in that respect, despite not eating for a while, which is reassuring.
I'm trying to find a cage but I'm having no luck, so I'm half tempted just to make one out of thick card for now but I don't want it to catch fire D: I'll give it a go later on in the day. She doesn't seem too interested in the lamp; when it's on she hides away under her logs, but I can see the concern for when it's not on, and then turning on not realising and burning herself. Any materials you'd suggest for a budget one until I can get my hands on a proper cage?
Also, would aspen bedding be appropriate? I heard the inks from news paper can be harmful if they rub off onto the snake.

Edit: I've just had a thought. I have two other exoterra tanks containing three snakes (one has my mexican black, the other has two corn snakes). Would the scent of those snakes be putting her off her food or making her edgy? She hasn't seemed too bothered; she's active in the enclosure, more than happy when I take her out, and she even climbs up her vivarium and tries to get a-top (not into) the other tanks when I leave hers open (ofc I keep an eye on her much like a parent would with a child near a busy road) but would the scent of the other two have any effect on her?

 

[GeckoJosh]

Hey does the white dust reappear after cleaning it off?

 

[Necromanced]

Not immediately. It reappears in different areas at different times but only in small places. She hasn't got mites if that's what you're thinking as mite droppings. I had that paranoia once before when she wasn't eating and took her in and they checked her over. No sign on mites in or near her eyes, along her body, or under her chin in that little fold of scale. I'm assuming it could be down to the humidity not being high enough so I'm going to start spraying three times a day with interventions of about 6-8 hours.

 

[Tsubakai]

Just to address some of your questions

The other snakes won't be bothering her.

I would not completely trust the store you bought her from to be the best source of advice for how to get her sorted out as they may not be experts. A vet check might be more appropriate.

Her skin looks not quite right. It might just be the photos but it looks like she may have a retained shed (or possibly is going to shed very soon). This could be one reason she likes to get into the water.

Another reason for the bathing (and the white dust) could be mites. Just looking on the snake is an imprecise way of checking. Put her on white paper for a day or two. If there are mites then you will see evidence on the paper.

Aspen shavings is a fine substrate and is probably a much better choice than the wood chips you are currently using.

 

[Allan]

What temp and humidity do you have in the cage? These snakes occur in the tropics and we are having 30 degree days and 24 degrees at night with very high humidity atm. Try a larger water bowl under the heat lamp to increase humidity as well as spraying. Newspaper ink is not harmful these days due to being kid safe (i can't think it being different in England) Definitely throw out the wood shavings. I'd also give it a bath in a container for an hour or two to make sure it's not dehydrated after having lived in an maybe too dry environment.

 

[Ramsayi]

.

 

[Necromanced]

Just to address some of your questions
The other snakes won't be bothering her.
I would not completely trust the store you bought her from to be the best source of advice for how to get her sorted out as they may not be experts. A vet check might be more appropriate.
Her skin looks not quite right. It might just be the photos but it looks like she may have a retained shed (or possibly is going to shed very soon). This could be one reason she likes to get into the water.
Another reason for the bathing (and the white dust) could be mites. Just looking on the snake is an imprecise way of checking. Put her on white paper for a day or two. If there are mites then you will see evidence on the paper.
Aspen shavings is a fine substrate and is probably a much better choice than the wood chips you are currently using.

The store I bought her from is owned by someone who even the vet recommends to take herps to if anything seems wrong. Admittedly some of them are just sales reps but I'm on good terms with the guy who owns the shop who is very experienced, so I'd trust him to tell me if she needed medical attention. I was thinking the same about her skin. It seems a little more 'leathery' near her neck than usual as it seems to fold more, but she hasn't shed since I've had her. She used to go in her waterbowl all the time before I got her heat lamp (several days at a time) but since I've put the lamp in there, she's only in her bowl once every few days for about an hour or two at a time. Just looked into her enclosure now and she's in one of her hides.
As for mites, the other three don't have them. The white would be easily spotted on the kingsnake but no signs of anything. Ofc I'm only using that as a gauge, not as a definite answer as to if she has mites or not. I've given her an inspection, running paper towels down her body looking to see if any mites burst and leave blood stains on the paper. No blood stains yet but I'll keep doing it.

What temp and humidity do you have in the cage? These snakes occur in the tropics and we are having 30 degree days and 24 degrees at night with very high humidity atm. Try a larger water bowl under the heat lamp to increase humidity as well as spraying. Newspaper ink is not harmful these days due to being kid safe (i can't think it being different in England) Definitely throw out the wood shavings. I'd also give it a bath in a container for an hour or two to make sure it's not dehydrated after having lived in an maybe too dry environment.

I'm not sure of the percentage of the humidity but I was spraying treated water twice a day into her enclosure (I've bumped it up to three times per day). Her waterbowl is in the cooler end of the vivarium so I'm not sure if it would be contributing to the humidity levels as much as it should, so I'll move it closer to the basking area. I'll put her on kitchen roll for a 2-4 days. What would be the tell tale signs of mites? I assume they'd drop off and be little black dots on the paper?
I'll find a plastic tub and put lukewarm water in there and leave her for an hour. I'll report back and see if her skin looks any tighter/smoother.
As for the white dust. Apparently, it's just dust from the enclosure, which makes me think it could be coming from the wood chips as Riggsy said about the dust coming off can cause respiratory problems, so it could be dust from the chips.

I had stopped handling her for a week before now and tried feeding her but nothing had happened. I bought rat pups today so I will try feeding her again in a few days to see how it goes.
As for the temperatures, I have exoterra thermometers in her tank. Hell knows how they work because before I had the lamp in there, it was reading about 75F/25C at the warm end, which is where the thermometer is based, and when I put the lamp in, it recorded the temperature as going down, when it's obviously warmer. However, the needle is resting in the 'green' area of the thermometer as they've colour coded sections of the thermometer temperatures. The heat mat stays on overnight and the lamp is on for 12 hours and off for 12 hours, so going by what the temps were before I had the lamp, overnight temps would be around 75-80F (I'm giving two temps as her vivarium is near a radiator so it affects the ambient temperature of the room as well as her tank). I'll get my hands on a thermometer and measure both sides precisely, lamp on and off, and get back to you on the results.
She can submerge completely in the waterbowl she has at the moment, though she never puts her snout under, always poking her head out when she does coil up in it.
As for the dust, I'm going to remove the wood chippings now just incase that could be the cause.

Edit: Just looked on eBay. There is a digital hygrometer and thermometer bundle going on eBay (God bless the internets!) so I will buy that and get back to you when I receive it, assuming I win.
As for the thermometer I'm using at the moment, it is one of these

The needle is constantly resting right on the 50F line when the lamp is on.

Edit #2: Would it be worth getting an Exo Terra night-glo lamp? Not necessarily Exo Terra branded but you get the jist.

Edit #3: Been speaking to someone and they have mentioned that a lamp could stress her out due to it emitting light along with heat. I'm not sure if this is true or not but I'm using a ProTep Green Jungle Spot Lamp @ 60watts, if it is of any concern.

 

[Nighthawk]

My in-laws has some real issues with one of their morelia feeding as well and tried everything to no avail (when it came to prey items/scenting etc), but come autumn she just wouldn't eat. Turned out the main problem was belly heat; once they rigged up a heat chord system under coreflute and had given it about a month she was munching like a champion. From the sounds of it your temps are way out of whack, just looking at the conversions there, they need a warm spot of at least 35 degrees C belly heat to digest properly and up metabolism.
Simplify your system, we went to tubs and heat chord under one end and that's worked a treat with all of our snakes, I understand it's not the prettiest but it can be duplicated in a display tank. The light shouldn't be stressing her at all if you run a 12 hour system and have it off at night, and relax lol. Try not to overthink everything.
Sorry I'm half asleep, let me know if anything made sense.

 

[Necromanced]

I'm not enturely sure what you mean but it sounds as if it's worth a shot.
Would you mind giiving a picture of two to give me a visual idea of the set up, ie the heat chord and coreflute (I'm not really familiar with terms unless its heat mat or substrate ) That is ofc if you get along with your in-laws

I think I get the jist of it. Sticking her in a tub and putting something warm under the tub whilst its feeding time?

Edit: Just had a look at the heat mat: 410x274mm, 210volts, 21.5w, giving about seven inches of space to cool end. I'm going to guess this mat is far too big? I think it's a gradient mat though but I'm not sure.

 

[Nighthawk]

We're heading back to Aus tomorrow (got caught in the NZ earthquake), if you want I'll get some pics of the setup then and post them once we get back if you like, it'd be easier that way. The whole thing's simple enough to make, although my father-in-law explains it better, my grasp of technical terms is basically 'that thingie there' and 'the plastic doodad' lmao, although I know it when I see it, but he and my husband tend to do most of the manual labour for habitat etc.